Best German drivers (obvious aside!)

[chunterer]

Some good names, I hadn't realised Rudolf C was actually German?! Shocking gap in the information bank by me there! (although that is likely for any period before the 70's).

Yes ladies and gents, lets keep this thread to discussing the why's and wherefores of generations of top German drivers. Anyone who wants to open a similar thread for Austrians and Belgians feel free to do so!! Otherwise i'll just have to do it instead!!

[ensign14]

The first man to win two Grands Prix was German - Christian Lautenschlager. However for some reason he is never really considered as one of the top drawer drivers. Maybe because his second win was an exemplar of teamwork, the faster Salzer basically breaking Boillot's Peugeot to allow Lautenschlager home to lead a near clean sweep. Also that he appeared to have done little else in his career.

(BTW, on the Belgian side, there was also Camille Jenatzy...)

[John Turner]

Another good call Ensign14; a reappraisal for Lautenschlager is probably in order. The race you are talking about specifically, the 1914 French GP figures at No.10 in MotorSport's list of Greatest Grand Prix which, of course, is the subject of another thread. Maybe we are becoming more aware of the deeds of the early racers.

[Marshal]

Originally Posted by ensign14

However his father was Austrian.

(At least that's what he told all the organizers post-war when German drivers were banned from international competition...)

As I recall, it might of had something to do with Stuck's wife (Paula) being the granddaughter of the cheif Rabbi of one Breslau - which didn't do his career much good through the 2nd half of the thirties, though he was still better than anyone at Hillclimbs.

My vote would go to Rosemeyer though, with Cartsch, Lang and Bellof.

Lang never had it particularly easy either, coming through from being a mechanic. Famous quote from Carracciola "Champagne all round, and a beer for Lang..."

[Pete Fenelon]

Thinking of 'lost talents' I'm surprised there's been no reference to Kurt Ahrens. Didn't race at the top level for long but showed he had what it took at F2 and sports car level, and didn't disgrace himself on his one and only F1 start, then just walked away from the sport to go back into his family business.

Of course there's also the Barths...

[ensign14]

And Paul Greifzu...

[John Turner]

Now that one has stumped me; care to enlighten us?

Mention of Kurt Ahrens reminded me of a sports car race I watched at Thruxton in September 1970 in which he drove a Martini sponsored Porsche 908, along with Helmut Marko, similarly mounted, Michel Weber (908) and Jiergen Neuhaus in 917. Can't remember who won but clearly a race with a strong German contingent.

[Alan Raine]

I had not heard of him until today. This is what Google came up with.

East German racer Paul Greifzu built a BMW Special for the East German Formula 2 Championship in the post-war era. He became the most successful driver in the series and competed in a variety of races in the west. In May 1952 he was killed in a practice accident for an event which was being held on the autobahn at Dessau. After his death his widow Dora entered one of the cars in the 1953 German Grand Prix for Rudolf Krause.

He also appears to have a Sports Stadium named after him - or is that just a coincidence

[ensign14]

Greifzu by reputation was the best of the East German post-war drivers. Of course not only were German drivers banned in the west for a long time but in those pre-Berlin Wall days East German drivers were encouraged not to leave the Commie zone, for fear of defections. (Brauchitsch went the other way, following a scandal in the West he legged it to the East...) Greifzu's special was a front-engined BMW thing with a scoop at the front a la Hawthorn's Cooper-Bristol, but far more elegant, circular and to one side.

[Alan Raine]

Originally Posted by ensign14

Greifzu by reputation was the best of the East German post-war drivers. Of course not only were German drivers banned in the west for a long time but in those pre-Berlin Wall days East German drivers were encouraged not to leave the Commie zone, for fear of defections. (Brauchitsch went the other way, following a scandal in the West he legged it to the East...) Greifzu's special was a front-engined BMW thing with a scoop at the front a la Hawthorn's Cooper-Bristol, but far more elegant, circular and to one side.

Anybody got any photos?

[Alan Raine]

A bit more Googling.

Found this.

http://8w.forix.com/df2-ebeg.html

Info on Greifzu. This guy was definately a racer!

[krt917]

Originally Posted by ensign14

Bernd Rosemeyer...a Villeneuve (G) for his generation. Better than Der Regenmeister?

A good question, that one! Rosemeyer certainly achieved incredible feats (Nurburgring '36) in his brief career, though it would have been interesting to see him in a top car other than the Auto Union. Rudi achieved even more, though (unlike Rosemeyer) he was around long enough to pass his peak and start to decline in '38/'39. I'm sure I've read in a number of accounts that Carraciola wasn't the same after his '33 Monaco accident. Given how much he won after that, you have to wonder how brilliant he must have been beforehand!

Apart from those two, Lang has to be the other outstanding pre-war German driver and, quite possible, the three of them should be listed directly under Schuey as Germany's greatest drivers. Both Stucks and Bellof probably next?

I do feel inclined to agree with those that suggest Bellof was too fast for his own good. The '83 Nurburgring Sportscar race perhaps sums him up best. Blindingly fast in qualifying with a 6m11s lap (still the all-time record I believe), he and Bell were leading the race when he pumped in a fastest lap of 6m25s. The next lap he wrote the car off. As has been said, he didn't know when not to be fast.

[bauble]

Paul Griefzu was certainly the best of the East German drivers who raced mainly only in the Eastern Zone but there were a number of others including; Edgar Barth, Eric (?) Bauer, Artur Rosenhammer, Kurt Straubel, Hans Klenk, Rudi Krause, Ernst Klodwig and Rudolph Ortschitt all who raced in the fifities driving mainly BMW pased specials or works EMW's.
Other names from that period; Fritz Reiss, Willy Heeks, T. Helfrich, Walter Seidel, Toni Helfrich, Ernst Loof and George Meier, ex motorcyclist and Auto Union driver of pre war days. A few names get brief mentions such as Niedermeyr, Nacke, Fitzau, Peters,and Karch. Look up EMW on Google for more info.
It would seem that there have been a great many German drivers over the years as revealed by contributors to the thread. And one not mentioned so far I believe is Alex Von Faulkenhausen, a very influential man in his day.

I wonder how many more will surface before we tire of this one?

[ensign14]

Originally Posted by bauble

Eric (?) Bauer

Erwin. Killed after the Nurburgring 1000km of 1958, he missed the chequered flag and carried on racing...

Originally Posted by bauble

It would seem that there have been a great many German drivers over the years as revealed by contributors to the thread. And one not mentioned so far I believe is Alex Von Faulkenhausen, a very influential man in his day.

The 8w source linked above is sheer gold dust for the immediate post-war period. "Uechtel" must have carried out a gigantic amount of research and ferreting to dig out the info.

[ensign14]

Originally Posted by krt917

Apart from those two, Lang has to be the other outstanding pre-war German driver and, quite possible, the three of them should be listed directly under Schuey as Germany's greatest drivers.

"Under"???

[chunterer]

Some classic 'F1' pilots have been mentioned here.

I'd also like to consider those who didn't get to F1 or may not have had a distinguisshed single seater career as such but nonrtheless carved out a good rep in other classes. HJ Stuck has already been mentioned

Jorg Muller needs a mention - the guy has always been fast but perhaps a bit OTT for some people's tastes. I have a suspicion that his stubborness may have prevented his graduation to F1, becuase it certainly wasn't lack of results that let him down.

Klaus Ludwig must go down as one of the most versatile drivers and one of the all time greats with a 'roof over his head.' He excelled in vitually any prototype he was asked to drive, or a touring car. Always a frontrunner.

Klaus Niedzwiedz was also a very good driver of touring cars, particularly Fords.

Bernd Schneider, Armin Hahne, Smoking Jo Winklehock, are all other examples of fine drivers in their areas.

People like Sascha Maassen, Ralf Kelleners and maybe Jorg Bergmeister are on course to become the 'new' Questers and Ludwigs?

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Klaus Ludwig must go down as one of the most versatile drivers and one of the all time greats with a 'roof over his head.' He excelled in vitually any prototype he was asked to drive, or a touring car. Always a frontrunner.

Thank you, chunterer. I have been trying to put a name to a face for a couple of days, in order to mention him here, but it completely eluded me. Yes, indeed, Klaus Ludwig, great driver. He never really wanted to retire did he?

[chunterer]

Yes John,

If we look back at his achievements they must rank as equivalent in points/titles and overall successes with any F1 superstar.

I can go back to the late 70's (but you might be able to tell us a bit about what he did before that? )

He won and was always on the pace with:

The Grp 5 Zakspeed Capri's, (still got a Burago 1:24 scale Liqui Moly one somewhere!) often humbling the more powerful but awkward Kremer Porsches.

The Zakspeed developed C100 which was succesful in Interserie if not WSC and dropped before it really got going!!

Numerous successes with Joest 956/962's including Le Mans/Group C and USA/IMSAGTP

Eggenberger's RS500's in the ETC and DTM

ITC/DTM with Mercedes then Opel

And to round it off as quick as any of the young guns in the bizarre Merc CLK- GTR!

Now that's a driver!!!

[Dan Rear]

Agreed Ludwig was mega in roofed cars, not quite so great in single seaters tho'. He struggled in F2 in 76 for example, with an up to date March, then also the next year in the awful Kahusen, which had won the series the year before.

[chunterer]

Thanks Dan, I'd always wanted to know bit more about what he did 'before he was famous'!!

Sounds like a similar story for a number of drivers who've made it outside of top line single seaters.

How many years did Ludwig toil away in single seaters before realising there were better options for him to achieve success?

[krt917]

Originally Posted by ensign14

"Under"???

Well, it is of course difficult to compare across eras, but I'll stick to that order for now thanks!

Of course, the German who got closest to winning the F1 World Championship before Schuey was von Trips. I've never been sure how to rate him. He'd been reasonable in sportscars before his F1 outings, but he was on his way to beating Phil Hill in 1961 before the Monza accident. The season had swung back and forth between them, but von Trips seemed to have the edge. Seeing as Hill is considered (rightly) one of the greats (not top 10, perhaps, but a great driver nevertheless), and von Trips may well have continued to get better, his place in the sport is difficult to gauge, much like Bellofs. I suppose motor racing is full of ifs, buts, and maybes.