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Old 4 May 2018, 18:43 (Ref:3819500)   #426
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Yes. But I don't feel proud of that.
At least you aren't gloating about it.
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Old 4 May 2018, 22:46 (Ref:3819553)   #427
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Ginetta as racing brand is (or should be) joke of the paddock now. Even JLOC seemed to receive more backing from Lambo/Reiter for their hobbyist projects at LM lol
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Old 5 May 2018, 05:13 (Ref:3819568)   #428
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That will teach me a lesson to not believe in these projects until they actually race in anger...

Very disappointed with how the thing unfolded.
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Old 5 May 2018, 07:37 (Ref:3819578)   #429
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This is a real shame. Hopefully it'll be sorted for Le Mans.

Ginetta has grown its production and turnover over the last few years. It produces quite a few cars now, expanded its one make series across the world and there is the LMP3 chassis. Quite a difference from not that long ago.

It's turn over was £9.2m (2017). The addition of an LMP1 programme is quite an addition to that and one that is more risky than selling the lower cost units. It is not something that could just fund themselves - they aren't a major manufacturer. They would need partners, customers, whatever you want to call them.

The LMP programme started, in earnest, quite late (as it did with most of this year's entrants). However the time as right and it was felt that here was benefit in getting in this year with the change in emphasis to LMP rules (as it did most of this year's entrants). I am surprised that so many could find the backing to produce cars. The money to spend on something as frivolous as motorsport is finite. Not enough to fund the other prospective Ginetta teams.

They partnered with Manor. Superficially a sensible choice, not particularly for their F1 efforts, but because of their previous success racing in other categories. From what I can see the problem is Manor not getting the money from their sponsors. It doesn't look wise for Ginetta to try and support that.

The return on investment for a fully funded Ginetta is probably marginal at best. For it to even be worth them trying this effort they need additional outside support. The model is sell to a customer who funds it. Otherwise it doesn't work for them.

I do not know what their current situation is, but I suspect Ginetta are not a cash rich firm (2017 accounts show £154k in cash). Simply bank rolling the team may well not be an option. Even if it is an option Ginetta is probably wise not to. They went into this with a customer/partner for a sensible reason. They should not risk their company and 70+ employees for this. They haven't been paid recently, so are already down, and could well have the view they don't want to throw good money after bad.

We all want to see these cars, but to stop themselves being a joke I suspect it may well be the right thing to not directly support this programme with more cash.
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Old 5 May 2018, 08:06 (Ref:3819584)   #430
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This is a real shame. Hopefully it'll be sorted for Le Mans.

Ginetta has grown its production and turnover over the last few years. It produces quite a few cars now, expanded its one make series across the world and there is the LMP3 chassis. Quite a difference from not that long ago.

It's turn over was £9.2m (2017). The addition of an LMP1 programme is quite an addition to that and one that is more risky than selling the lower cost units. It is not something that could just fund themselves - they aren't a major manufacturer. They would need partners, customers, whatever you want to call them.

The LMP programme started, in earnest, quite late (as it did with most of this year's entrants). However the time as right and it was felt that here was benefit in getting in this year with the change in emphasis to LMP rules (as it did most of this year's entrants). I am surprised that so many could find the backing to produce cars. The money to spend on something as frivolous as motorsport is finite. Not enough to fund the other prospective Ginetta teams.

They partnered with Manor. Superficially a sensible choice, not particularly for their F1 efforts, but because of their previous success racing in other categories. From what I can see the problem is Manor not getting the money from their sponsors. It doesn't look wise for Ginetta to try and support that.

The return on investment for a fully funded Ginetta is probably marginal at best. For it to even be worth them trying this effort they need additional outside support. The model is sell to a customer who funds it. Otherwise it doesn't work for them.

I do not know what their current situation is, but I suspect Ginetta are not a cash rich firm (2017 accounts show £154k in cash). Simply bank rolling the team may well not be an option. Even if it is an option Ginetta is probably wise not to. They went into this with a customer/partner for a sensible reason. They should not risk their company and 70+ employees for this. They haven't been paid recently, so are already down, and could well have the view they don't want to throw good money after bad.

We all want to see these cars, but to stop themselves being a joke I suspect it may well be the right thing to not directly support this programme with more cash.
Yep, the reality of motorsport. Ginetta's approach to the situation has been measured, and patient, they had already cut their customer a substantial amount of slack, reading between the lines. All very sad for those involved, and for us, the fans, but business is business.

It has not been a great weekend for the race debut of the P1 privateers, Rebellion aside.
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Old 5 May 2018, 08:07 (Ref:3819585)   #431
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It's all very disappointing as the whole thing was pushed right from the start as a success. It was originally said that there were too many interesting customers and they didn't have enough cars available, however, they'd be happy with 6 cars (presumably over the course of the project, not for race 1). Then it was confirmed 3 were sold and a second team is confirmed but unannounced, and then it was just Manor but "more will come when Manor does well", and now it's nobody starting race 1. Perhaps expectations were set a little high on this one.
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Old 5 May 2018, 08:08 (Ref:3819586)   #432
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Exactly. Ginetta agreed sell cars to team. Team promised had money. Team lied. No money to even pay for the cars. Ginetta let’s cars test. Team blames Chinese when it was 99% fairly obvious this was all likely bullshit. Ginetta loses patience as they realise they will be next in a long line of businesses unpaid by this team. Pull entries only sensible option available. Maybe try and regroup and find a credible solution to run a car later on.
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Old 5 May 2018, 09:09 (Ref:3819591)   #433
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Relying on Chinese money to go racing is always fraught with more danger than usual. Shame, hope we see them at LE Mans.
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Old 5 May 2018, 09:16 (Ref:3819593)   #434
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Assuming everything gets sorted, which is a massive IF - missing the only race before Le Mans is a huge setback for the team operationally, understanding the car, and also the drivers - who are a young and largely inexperienced group in sportscar terms.

Given the big carrot here was to have a sniff at winning Le Mans then it's almost over before it's begun. And if they can't get funding cleared in time for Le Mans then I assume the whole thing will just fall through?
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Old 5 May 2018, 09:18 (Ref:3819594)   #435
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Ginetta as racing brand is (or should be) joke of the paddock now. Even JLOC seemed to receive more backing from Lambo/Reiter for their hobbyist projects at LM lol
Yep, I guess they even funded the torch for the door.....
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Old 5 May 2018, 17:26 (Ref:3820050)   #436
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Exactly. Ginetta agreed sell cars to team. Team promised had money. Team lied. No money to even pay for the cars. Ginetta let’s cars test. Team blames Chinese when it was 99% fairly obvious this was all likely bullshit. Ginetta loses patience as they realise they will be next in a long line of businesses unpaid by this team. Pull entries only sensible option available. Maybe try and regroup and find a credible solution to run a car later on.
Correct. Not Ginetta's fault. Manor was the one to screw up!
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Old 6 May 2018, 00:12 (Ref:3820198)   #437
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Assuming everything gets sorted, which is a massive IF - missing the only race before Le Mans is a huge setback for the team operationally, understanding the car, and also the drivers - who are a young and largely inexperienced group in sportscar terms.

Given the big carrot here was to have a sniff at winning Le Mans then it's almost over before it's begun. And if they can't get funding cleared in time for Le Mans then I assume the whole thing will just fall through?
IF Le Mans falls through, it is hard to see when the Ginetta reemerges. The whole Super Season thing doesn't help — in theory, the next entry point for a different team running the car would be the beginning of the 2019/2020 season. I suppose though the ACO/WEC could be nice and allow some team to join the series in early 2019 (Sebring or Spa) for Le Mans 2019 as a prelude to the 2019/2020 season.

Who does that is uncertain — the Ginetta will be behind the other new privateer LMP1s in development in the contest to be the first loser behind healthy Toyotas.

And as for Manor, they just went to the top of everyone's cash on the barrelhead list. It'll be hard for them even to sell seats, as pay drivers will be concerned that their money will just go to pay off some existing debt and not towards running the car in the future.

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Old 6 May 2018, 11:17 (Ref:3820300)   #438
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Correct. Not Ginetta's fault. Manor was the one to screw up!
It doesn't matter who made mistakes where, if Ginetta as brand wants to race at Le Mans - or LMP at all - again, they need to help them. This is not the time to be greedy and not open the money drains, it is absolutely required for their own good, saving public image.

If they don't hand out the cash bags and other assistance to Manor, I'd imagine the team to still be able to enter LM at least with one car (if ACO lets them) because you know it's Le Mans after all, sponsors will want to have presence there. But after that I'd expect immediate bail out from the championship.

Later on (even in this 18-19 season), after Manor's possible exit from the scene, I suppose Ginetta could request entry from the ACO and run pseudo semi factory team of their own... but it may be too late then. And in any case, better to do your homework now, not later

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Old 6 May 2018, 12:52 (Ref:3820328)   #439
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I don't agree. I think it would set a bad predecent for them if they allow to a team to race cars that were delivered but not payed for. If I want to run a Manor than I couldn't go to them, say a have a sponsor who will pay for the car and if the money never arrives demand to let me race the car
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Old 6 May 2018, 13:02 (Ref:3820332)   #440
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Quite frankly Manor have got a lot to sort out. They are trying to race this Ginett, but things haven’t exactly gone according to plan. They must be wishing they were still in F1 at this time
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Old 6 May 2018, 14:10 (Ref:3820354)   #441
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I don't agree. I think it would set a bad predecent for them if they allow to a team to race cars that were delivered but not payed for. If I want to run a Manor than I couldn't go to them, say a have a sponsor who will pay for the car and if the money never arrives demand to let me race the car
Ginetta could run the car themselves, under the Manor banner, not only to save faces but to prove that the car could be worth investing in the future. Next year no-one will bother purchasing unknown Ginetta P1 if they don't know the product and it has bad historical PR value. They will go for safe option. Which will be either Dallara or more likely Oreca, after their exclusivity deal with the Swiss runs out and they're ready to supply other teams

Let's be clear here. The real issue here isn't about Manor (who may or may not be done) but the future of Ginetta AND chassis options for nonhybrid P1.

Any "bad precedent" would be the lesser of two evils.
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Old 6 May 2018, 15:00 (Ref:3820372)   #442
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This is a real shame. Hopefully it'll be sorted for Le Mans.

Ginetta has grown its production and turnover over the last few years. It produces quite a few cars now, expanded its one make series across the world and there is the LMP3 chassis. Quite a difference from not that long ago.

It's turn over was £9.2m (2017). The addition of an LMP1 programme is quite an addition to that and one that is more risky than selling the lower cost units. It is not something that could just fund themselves - they aren't a major manufacturer. They would need partners, customers, whatever you want to call them.

The LMP programme started, in earnest, quite late (as it did with most of this year's entrants). However the time as right and it was felt that here was benefit in getting in this year with the change in emphasis to LMP rules (as it did most of this year's entrants). I am surprised that so many could find the backing to produce cars. The money to spend on something as frivolous as motorsport is finite. Not enough to fund the other prospective Ginetta teams.

They partnered with Manor. Superficially a sensible choice, not particularly for their F1 efforts, but because of their previous success racing in other categories. From what I can see the problem is Manor not getting the money from their sponsors. It doesn't look wise for Ginetta to try and support that.

The return on investment for a fully funded Ginetta is probably marginal at best. For it to even be worth them trying this effort they need additional outside support. The model is sell to a customer who funds it. Otherwise it doesn't work for them.

I do not know what their current situation is, but I suspect Ginetta are not a cash rich firm (2017 accounts show £154k in cash). Simply bank rolling the team may well not be an option. Even if it is an option Ginetta is probably wise not to. They went into this with a customer/partner for a sensible reason. They should not risk their company and 70+ employees for this. They haven't been paid recently, so are already down, and could well have the view they don't want to throw good money after bad.

We all want to see these cars, but to stop themselves being a joke I suspect it may well be the right thing to not directly support this programme with more cash.
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Old 6 May 2018, 15:07 (Ref:3820374)   #443
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Ginetta could run the car themselves, under the Manor banner, not only to save faces but to prove that the car could be worth investing in the future. Next year no-one will bother purchasing unknown Ginetta P1 if they don't know the product and it has bad historical PR value. They will go for safe option. Which will be either Dallara or more likely Oreca, after their exclusivity deal with the Swiss runs out and they're ready to supply other teams

Let's be clear here. The real issue here isn't about Manor (who may or may not be done) but the future of Ginetta AND chassis options for nonhybrid P1.

Any "bad precedent" would be the lesser of two evils.
You're ignoring that Ginetta may not have the money to run and develop the car(s) themselves. Ginetta is a relatively small company and has rather limited resources. Adam43 provided the numbers — it only had £154k cash on hand at its last audit.

The worst case scenario here isn't that Ginetta doesn't sell privateer LMP1s. It's that it goes all in trying to sell LMP1s and loses, putting the company in bankruptcy, and that its existing employees lose their jobs.
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Old 6 May 2018, 15:56 (Ref:3820383)   #444
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I also wonder if they were hoping to sell more cars to try and make back some money on the project. I did think that their goal of selling 6-8 cars initially was optimistic.
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Old 6 May 2018, 17:13 (Ref:3820402)   #445
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You're ignoring that Ginetta may not have the money to run and develop the car(s) themselves. Ginetta is a relatively small company and has rather limited resources. Adam43 provided the numbers — it only had £154k cash on hand at its last audit.

The worst case scenario here isn't that Ginetta doesn't sell privateer LMP1s. It's that it goes all in trying to sell LMP1s and loses, putting the company in bankruptcy, and that its existing employees lose their jobs.
Errrrm, you guys do know who Ginetta is owned by?
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Old 6 May 2018, 17:52 (Ref:3820418)   #446
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They must be wishing they were still in F1 at this time
Lol, nobody in F1 would supply anything as they got burned before being paid in bullshit.
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Old 6 May 2018, 18:29 (Ref:3820435)   #447
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Errrrm, you guys do know who Ginetta is owned by?
Yes. (although thank you for reading my post )

The consistent losses have been subsidised. It might border on a hobby, but he’s not a fool. Look at what he’s spent on his racing before. A lot, but this is a different league.

It’s a private concern. His fortune is the enabler, but that doesn’t mean he is willing to fritter it away. An individual bank rolling a two car team to win Le Mans. That’s 1970s talk, at a push!
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Old 6 May 2018, 20:18 (Ref:3820467)   #448
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A multi-millionaire funding his own team would be cool to see honestly. I don't see it happening though. Which is a shame because I don't know if the future of these cars is set if Spa is to go by. This Chinese funding better come because it would be a shame not to see the Ginetta's turn a lap at all at the test day let alone Le Mans.
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Old 9 May 2018, 09:51 (Ref:3820983)   #449
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Ginetta LMP1

I think you are all missing the point, the team et all went out to SPA entry fees paid all set up ready to run.
All the expenses swallowed, all they had to do pay for was fuel, tires and engine mileage.
Does it not seem strange that the car did not run given all that was at stake? perhaps it was the testing performance that is / was the issue, 1.5 sec off the slowest LMP1 car at Paul Recard, equating to about 4 sec round SPA!
Manor do have a reputation, even Berni went on record to suggest they weren't welcome in F1, it all seems very strange.
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Old 9 May 2018, 10:10 (Ref:3820990)   #450
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I think you are all missing the point, the team et all went out to SPA entry fees paid all set up ready to run.
All the expenses swallowed, all they had to do pay for was fuel, tires and engine mileage.
Does it not seem strange that the car did not run given all that was at stake? perhaps it was the testing performance that is / was the issue, 1.5 sec off the slowest LMP1 car at Paul Recard, equating to about 4 sec round SPA!
Manor do have a reputation, even Berni went on record to suggest they weren't welcome in F1, it all seems very strange.
Ginetta have come out and said they didn't allow Manor to run the car because they didn't pay for it.
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