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Old 31 Jul 2007, 22:12 (Ref:1977682)   #76
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henk4
I fail to see what a Corvette C6 has to do with my post about the roadholding of an Elan. Perhaps I missed something ?
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Old 1 Aug 2007, 05:26 (Ref:1977843)   #77
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A Corvette still has a transverse rear leaf spring. I'm sure most people hear the Corvette has leaf springs and think of a traditional (Hotchkiss) leaf spring rear end
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Old 1 Aug 2007, 07:02 (Ref:1977877)   #78
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A Corvette still has a transverse rear leaf spring. I'm sure most people hear the Corvette has leaf springs and think of a traditional (Hotchkiss) leaf spring rear end
it even has a transverse leaf spring at the front....
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Old 1 Aug 2007, 18:13 (Ref:1978432)   #79
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OK guys but I dont think that the Corvette with its composite spring set up is anything like a Herald or E93A Ford round corners, but point taken.
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Old 1 Aug 2007, 19:59 (Ref:1978528)   #80
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Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER
Michael in my post 53 I dared to mention Lotus Elans as crap built cars. I was surprised that I didn't get an ear bashing from the diehards. What always amazed me was the terrific roadholding they had for the day considering a Triumph Herald wasn't exactly the best handling suspension wise. Whatever they are a genuine "Classic" car. I wonder if the old Triumph would have been a gem if they had done away with the thirties transverse leaf spring ?
Gordon:

Not ignoring this thread: I've been away at our second home in France.

Herald: Hmmm.........

Have a 1966 Convertible, gradually being restored. (It's my wife's and she loves it! been in the family since 1977.).

They corner OK, if you have the bottle to chuck it sideways well before the corner, before the swinging arm jacks.......................................otherwise, it can be exciting!

Corvettes: Hmmm again. Wonderful in a straight line if you have the Pro Traj Limslip fitted. Don't bother with trying to stop too much; or go round
corners!

Transverse leaf springs are OK, if you have good independant suspension.

Les Ballamy of course, designed and made split front axle IFS for E93A Fords, after which, the old Puddle Jumper handled reasonably well. For a haystack on wheels.

The Elan: awful car, but sort of value for money in terms of performance and handling, if you liked leaking, rattling doors, driveshaft doughnuts splitting, carbs frothing (until the flexible rubber mount plates) and so on. A typical "Chunky" Chapman car. Not designed for sale.

An old chum from the early Hethel days, (he was marketing manager and one of the few to actually tame a Lotus 40, after Ginther gave up!), reckoned that Chunky hated owners and designed the cars only to achieve his Cost-Weight-Performance targets!

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Any car can become a classic sooner or later, especially when you start realising how few of a once abundant model are left....so we can have classic examples of instant classics, and classic examples of "delayed" classics...like a BMW Isetta...
Henk4:

I think the minor confusion here, is the difference between "Classic" and "Collectible".

As with all objects of old, rarity suddenly makes the most ugly and obscure objects collectible, since they tend to have an increasing value, only due to their rarity.

However, rarity and increasing value, for me, can never make an ugly old clunker into a "Classic" car!

Sow's Ears and Silk Purses, perhaps?
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Old 1 Aug 2007, 20:06 (Ref:1978537)   #81
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Originally Posted by Michael C Felth
Henk4:

I think the minor confusion here, is the difference between "Classic" and "Collectible".

As with all objects of old, rarity suddenly makes the most ugly and obscure objects collectible, since they tend to have an increasing value, only due to their rarity.

However, rarity and increasing value, for me, can never make an ugly old clunker into a "Classic" car!

Sow's Ears and Silk Purses, perhaps?
Philosophically I have to agree with you. However, if one were to stubbornly stick with this definition, all magazines dealing with Classic Cars/Thoroughbred Cars or whatever they call them, would pretty soon run out of subjects. They can't simply write a new story about the E-Type every year.... although some of them do it every five years...
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Old 2 Aug 2007, 07:30 (Ref:1978816)   #82
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Last night I was glancing through Cecil Clutton's book on the VSCC (Vintage Sports Car Club).

When it was formed (1954), it was going to be called the "Veterans" SCC, however the true Veteran's Club objected. Thus true veterans date to 1904: "Edwardians" are defined as from 1905 to 1916: and Vintage from 1919 to 1930.

As I think I mentioned previously, the VSCC used to have a class they termed PVTs (Post Vintage Thoroughbreds).

And to me, the term "Thoroughbred", sort of sums it all up!

I do agree with what you say about mags, these days; no doubt we'll soon see a publication called "Trabant Owner", or similar!
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Old 2 Aug 2007, 07:53 (Ref:1978830)   #83
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On the topic of old car clubs. I was present (albeit 7 years old) at the first meeting of the Pionier Automobiel Club (PAC) in Utrecht in 1956. At that time membership was open for cars built up to 1930. Amazingly 50 years later, eligibility has only been extended to 1940.
For me thoroughbred reminds me of horses, which by definition have only one HP, so hardly exciting...

anyway

http://www.trabantmueller.de/

you could be served soon....
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Old 2 Aug 2007, 09:52 (Ref:1978918)   #84
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Of course, horses enjoyed basic linkage to motor cars in the early days since most early garages were livery stables and horse dealers and stealers!

Also, of course, the early carriage makers made the original car bodies: which is why they resembled horse drawn carriages: and tended to use the same suspension!

And most early car owners tended to be reasonably well off and were into horses and seemed to simply apply their equine terminology, thus "Thoroughbred" might have been pretty natural.

Interesting thoughts..........................
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Old 3 Aug 2007, 18:09 (Ref:1980044)   #85
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simon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
I had a call this morning from a mate asking if I would do him a favour and take his 246 Dino for a spin as he hasnt had time to recently and thought it better get an airing -2 hours mostly in a traffic jam on the M3/M27 down to pick my son up from Southampton airport and back to Stockbridge after having lunch with a friend who has a 2.7 RS and 356 Speedster led to a most enjoyable afternoon!
A classic car (IMHO) should be great to the eye and a joy to drive. The Dino does both of those. Last year I was fortunate enough to drive the same car down to Le Mans and back and it ran faultlessly. A great little car full of charm and whilst not super quick its roadholding is superb and invites you to push it and when it does step out its so progressive its a doddle to catch it.
Certainly a car that would be in my virtual collection.
The E Type however is a different story. I had a 3.8 Coupe and whilst I still think that they are gorgeous and sound fantastic they are not that noce to drive - sadly. However I have a nasty feeling that I will get tempted by one again!
I am interested in the comments on Elans as I have always thought that they would make a great "tour auto" type car
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Old 3 Aug 2007, 18:30 (Ref:1980049)   #86
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Simon:

I drove a 246 quite a bit in the early 70s.

They have always been one of my favourite cars. To drive!

Wonderful handling, as you say. And the wonderful evocative sound from those downdraft IDAs..................................

A timeless classic.

Agree about the E Type: had two, both Series 1 1/2 4.2s.

Brutish but fun.

Couldn't stop and didn't handle; and worst of all, the nose acted as a sort of reverse air dam, lifting the car onto a cushion of air which meant lots of fun at speed on motorways when cross-draft hit you under an overpass!

The thing is that both the E and the 246 were really cheap, comparatively, in, respectively, the 60s and the 70s.

Lots of car for the money!
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Old 3 Aug 2007, 18:32 (Ref:1980052)   #87
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Originally Posted by simon drabble
I am interested in the comments on Elans as I have always thought that they would make a great "tour auto" type car
ask John Hugenholtz or John Sheldon, they used the Elan to win Tour Auto for the last number of years
Hugenholtz thinks either a Cobra or an Elan is a car to win. It was the Cobras who broke down during the recent editions
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Old 3 Aug 2007, 18:52 (Ref:1980062)   #88
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Carol Spagg's HMRN always has great shots each year an someone's Elan catching air on the Mallorca rally! Nick Faure (a man more well known for Porsches than elan's had one and we shared teh same mechanic at the time and he was forever telling me it was a bottomless pit!). with current FIA rules allowing S1's to be built to basically 26R spec it does make you wonder if they are an interesting bet.
Michael my father had a 246 GTS and sadly sold it in 76 for 5k - he was virtually crying in the early nineties!! He used to travel to Norfolk a lot at the time from his house near Silverstone and would leave at 6.30 am in the summer to enjoy the journey cross country without interruption from the local plod!
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Old 3 Aug 2007, 20:02 (Ref:1980105)   #89
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Different world then, Mate!

In the early 70s, I used to tow the Atlantic, at times, behind my Firenza 2.3 Sport thingy, using a four wheel, close coupled Don Parker trailer which was wonderfully stable.

Used to footle along the M1 to Silverstone, e.g., with the needle firmly sitting on "Made In England"!

Ho Hum..................................
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Old 2 Jan 2008, 18:16 (Ref:2098156)   #90
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For myself i had this at work with some mates and we all seem to agree that any thing thatt is no longer made is a classic that includeds anything
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Old 2 Jan 2008, 23:22 (Ref:2098308)   #91
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Originally Posted by SidewaysFeltham
When it was formed (1954), it was going to be called the "Veterans" SCC, however the true Veteran's Club objected. Thus true veterans date to 1904: "Edwardians" are defined as from 1905 to 1916: and Vintage from 1919 to 1930.
Seeing as this topic has come up again, I thought I would just add a small note that in Australia the term Veteran is applied to any car pre-WW1 (well the end of it anyway). Vintage is pre-1930, after that I'm not sure there is a general agreement on terminology.
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Old 4 Apr 2008, 12:09 (Ref:2169456)   #92
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FYI, on University Challenge this week, the programme suggested that The Trabant, The original lumpy Skoda, the Lada were wait for this.......................Classic Cars!

I can't remember the other East European car included as I was too busy rolling on the floor and kicking my little legs in uproarous laughter: and throwing up, simultaneously!

Classic Car: one of the most abused misnomers of the 21st Cent.
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Old 4 Apr 2008, 21:45 (Ref:2169879)   #93
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FYI, on University Challenge this week, the programme suggested that The Trabant, The original lumpy Skoda, the Lada were wait for this.......................Classic Cars!

Talking about the above a mate of mine brought another piece of Iron Curtain crap in the 60s. A brand new Moskvitch ! I think it was 4 or 5 hundred quid and he found out that the braking system was made so badly made that it would never pass an MOT (when it was due for it) without spending loads of money. As it was it never got that far as it was written off when he ran into the back of a van.
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Old 5 Apr 2008, 07:06 (Ref:2170039)   #94
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In 1978/9, I was involved in a project to bring Chinese vehicles to the West.

Bill Riley (lovely guy: the grandson of the founder of Riley Cars and a very well recognised automotive and consulting engineer) was also a main part of the programme as he'd been headhunted by the Chinese government to assist them with a re-design of their vehicles.

We imported a Pekin Jeep: this was a "made Under License" Gaz large and lumpy 4 X 4.

To say it was agricultural would be to understate the case....................

Prior to Bill's involvement, the steering was so bad that new, the vehicle would wander from hard shoulder to central reservation on the widest bits of the M1 with the steering wheel dead centre!

Exciting!
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Old 5 Apr 2008, 13:05 (Ref:2170277)   #95
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It must have been like a James Cagney gangster movie, where they would show the driver going from lock to lock whereas the back projection showed the road was straight !
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Old 9 Apr 2008, 15:03 (Ref:2173911)   #96
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Talking about the above a mate of mine brought another piece of Iron Curtain crap in the 60s. A brand new Moskvitch ! I think it was 4 or 5 hundred quid and he found out that the braking system was made so badly made that it would never pass an MOT (when it was due for it) without spending loads of money. As it was it never got that far as it was written off when he ran into the back of a van.

A guy I knew back then would only ever buy them Gordon,they did well to survive the treatment he gave them,driving over rough fields etc[he was a farmer]One day he brought the "Car" into the w/shop complaining about the play in the steering colomb,we pulled it apart only to find the colomb bushes to be just like the cardboard tube from a loo roll,guess what replaced it.
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