White badge ? But very experienced marshals

[brian_bury]

As an IO i have come upon the experienced Marshal that has been a white badge for more that 3 years, and i had one on my post with me that has been a white badge for over 5 years but does not want to upgrade to green for the simple reason, that they don't want to be tested as to there skills,
so do you think that the upgrade to green should be an automatic one on just signatures as it use to be so that we can see without asking the old question every time "how many meetings have you done" to white badge holders,
I think in time there will be a lot of white badges and NO green ones as people just dont like the idea that they have to be tested on there skills as marshals....

OH and its just an idea lets see what you all think as the age of the white badge marshal is getting higher its very hard to know by just looking at the person to assume his/ her experience

[Terrible-Tones]

I have also seen this quiet a lot recently - along with long term Green Badges who maybe might have otherwise graded to red.

My perception, having spoken to a lot of people, is not that they are reluctant to have their skills tested but two other factors.

The first is the difficulty of getting two factors to come together on an assesment day. The first is having an Ex PC in the first place and the second is having a worthwhile incident happening at that time. Of course this has been perhaps alleviated by the fact you can use any incident in the preceeding days (as long as they are signed off by an ExPC) - but I am not sure this is entirely clear to all.

The other which seems to crop up consistently is the number of flag days required. I percieve that this is more of a problem for Green to Red than White to Green. I just get the feeling that people don't want to take so many days "out of" their Track days to do this and this has had an effect on the number of upgrades going through.

I am not saying that the grading scheme is right or wrong in this matter, but just reporting back what I hear consistently on the bank. I can see this thread might turn into another debate about the grading scheme (again) but it is relevant to look at why we suddenly seem to have a lot of peeps who are deciding not to, or having difficulty in grading upwards.

[numbersix]

Originally Posted by Terrible-Tones

...but two other factors...

I think there is a third factor. Some guys just can't be bothered with badges and bureaucracy. They only do one circuit and long enough for all the regulars to recognise and know their skills. They care not a jot for PRCs, RCPs and some can do CPR. Give these guys a badge and they probably won't sew it on.

They don't have to! They're just enjoying what they do.

[Gas bag]

Originally Posted by numbersix

I think there is a third factor. Some guys just can't be bothered with badges and bureaucracy. They only do one circuit and long enough for all the regulars to recognise and know their skills. They care not a jot for PRCs, RCPs and some can do CPR. Give these guys a badge and they probably won't sew it on.

They don't have to! They're just enjoying what they do.

I agree,I know of one very very experienced P/C who has marshalled for over 40 YEARS and has never been a member of BMMC!!!
Yet his name is known and he is well respected and local Chief P/C's have no qualms about where he is posted on the bank.

There is definately some reticence to upgrade by marshals,however they need to look upon it as merely visual observations by the X P/C during the day and some gentle questioning as to their knowledge at the end of the day,NOT AN EXAM!!

Please remember we are ALL volunteers at the end of the day and it should never become a JOB!!

[Steve Fox]

As a "white" my experience is that I started in the middle of the year and have now done more than 30 days on the bank but could not take an assessment without attending a training day. I have now done 3 training days at different circuits but the rules for upgrading have slightly changed so that instead of 2 days flagging "recommended" they are now mandatory, so that is now where I am at. I will do the required flagging but only when I am on a post or in a situation where my bad flagging won't endanger anyone. Meantime I have paid for and attended a first aid course and a fire Marshals course, both of which were interesting and hopefully will be useful, I have held a Nat A race licence for 15 years BUT as a white badge holder I do not expect to be taken seriously. Simple as that. Anyone who won't upgrade for anything other than technical reasons cannot hope to be seen in the same light as someone who has been able to prove their competence by examination.

[brian_bury]

" I have held a Nat A race licence for 15 years BUT as a white badge holder I do not expect to be taken seriously."



well i take everyone that stands on the bank on the post where i am IO very seriously,
I have put new white badge marshals with more experienced white badges and they have worked well together and i always try to add to there knowledge of marshalling as the day goes on by asking questions of them and answering questions that they have asked and at the same time try to instill SAFE AT ALL TIME way of working when your on track

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by numbersix

I think there is a third factor. Some guys just can't be bothered with badges and bureaucracy. They only do one circuit and long enough for all the regulars to recognise and know their skills. They care not a jot for PRCs, RCPs and some can do CPR. Give these guys a badge and they probably won't sew it on.

They don't have to! They're just enjoying what they do.

I agree, indeed this is a very valid third

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by Gas bag

I know of one very very experienced P/C who has marshalled for over 40 YEARS and has never been a member of BMMC!!!
Yet his name is known and he is well respected and local Chief P/C's have no qualms about where he is posted on the bank.

The grading scheme is not a limited to the BMMC. It is an MSA scheme and is universal in the UK, not club specific. I guess the idea is that it is valid at any club at any circuit for any meeting, giving the PC some basic idea of the compentencies of the marshals he has. For this reason I beleive it is correct that there should be some form of assesment for grading.

Of course there are peeps who are badged well below their experience levels and have been accepted by their peers because of their consistent high standards. I don't see an issue with this, but it does not particularly help them if they then choose to marshal outside their "normal" circuit or club, nor does it help the PC (or other marshals) if they do not know them personally.

For instance recently we had a Trainee Specialist turn up for S/L but they said they had done a high number of meetings but not bothered to upgrade - instant problem - do we take them at their word and risk a possible messy grid etc, or treat them as Trainee and risk offending their experience level and feelings?

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by Terrible-Tones

For instance recently we had a Trainee Specialist turn up for S/L but they said they had done a high number of meetings but not bothered to upgrade - instant problem - do we take them at their word and risk a possible messy grid etc, or treat them as Trainee and risk offending their experience level and feelings?

Are we not though back to the discussion about how you judge people generally? My experience within specialist grades is that I've seen very very competent trainees and some graded specialists that are much less capable.

As ever I think it's about judging the individual in front of you and not the badge.

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by Piglet

As ever I think it's about judging the individual in front of you and not the badge.

Was just pointing out the dilemma we had. In short I agree with you and it is what we did in that instance - used a bit of common sense and it worked out just fine. It is also what I do out Bankside with people if needed.

However, if you are not judging the "badge" to some degree then naturally the argument runs "Why bother with the grading scheme at all?"

In the end I think one uses a natural balance of grading, impressions of the person and the situation or context you are in.

The issue in this thread raised by the original poster is why aren't people upgrading? This is an interesting question and has many varied answers as illustrated already, the actual scheme technicalities, the individual's own wishes, and the context in which they marshal.

If one of those (the scheme) could be made simpler and easier but still achieve the goals required of it, which is a reasonable measure and notification of a persons competance, then it is perhaps worth looking at?

[brian_bury]

do you think the white to green should be by signatures gained for incident's they have handled and IF they want to upgrade after that for red then they should be assessed by an X grade pc

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by brian_bury

do you think the white to green should be by signatures gained for incident's they have handled and IF they want to upgrade after that for red then they should be assessed by an X grade pc

Sorry Brian - I didn't get the question quite right.

In answer to that, my personal opinion is that yes, there should be some form of basic assessment.

My reasoning; the grading scheme exists as a measure of both experience and competance and therefore not to have an assessment loses the second of those elements.

My personal opinion of the scheme is that at present it hasn't got either the assesments or the way it measures experience quite right yet and could be improved (I do have some ideas - not just moaning about it in a negative way).

My actual "on the ground" personal experience; I use both the scheme, and as Anita quite rightly points out, a big chunk of intuition about a person I am working with, for, or have working under me.

[brian_bury]

Originally Posted by Terrible-Tones

If one of those (the scheme) could be made simpler and easier but still achieve the goals required of it, which is a reasonable measure and notification of a persons competance, then it is perhaps worth looking at?

if you don;t have to be assessed and it is automatic on signatures then i think a lot of pressure to upgrade to red will be taken off as well

[Alan.F]

I am a green badge and have been for 3yrs and will probably stay this way as i joined the orange brigade to be an incident marshal, Having to flag is rubbish to go to red if i wanted to be a flaggie i would have taken this side of it up, I dont agree with being forced to do it.

[kipper]

Personally, I don't think upgrades should be solely based upon attendance for the purpose of any grading scheme is to demonstrate the experiences of the individual and also the wider members.

However, it is undoubtable that there are a number of marshals whose experience does not tally with their grade. Whilst I am sure that there are some who have no particular desire to upgrade, I think the main crux of the problem is that getting on post with an Examining Observer is quite difficult, particularly as there needs to be an incident to deal with (also it has to be the 'right' sort of incident in terms of complexity, particularly when going from green to red).

[Bakersboy]

Originally Posted by numbersix

I think there is a third factor. Some guys just can't be bothered with badges and bureaucracy. They only do one circuit and long enough for all the regulars to recognise and know their skills. They care not a jot for PRCs, RCPs and some can do CPR. Give these guys a badge and they probably won't sew it on.

They don't have to! They're just enjoying what they do.

[Bakersboy]

I've been marshalling for over 3 years now, mostly at Oulton Park but also Donnington, Cholmondley Pageant of Power and a few rallies and no I haven't bothered to upgrade yet, I've not even bothered to claim all my signatures. I've climbed the corporate ladder professionally but this is my hobby and I don't feel the need to go chasing badges at my time of life. The only reason I might want to upgrade would be to go to some of the more “prestigious” events and even then that would only be to say “I’ve done that”. I'm very happy to be on the bank with the lads, enjoy racing and be there to help to the very best of my ability when needed. We discussed the whole upgrading thing this last weekend and I understand there is a need from manning a point of view to distribute appropriate knowledge around the posts and that the grading scheme helps to enable this. Perhaps I could have an off-white badge – pink would clash with the orange.
Rob Wood

[LeighV]

As one of those with a white badge and in my fourth year in orange I would just like to add my pennies worth.

I've not upgraded yet for a few reasons, mainly because I'm not in a rush to do so, and over the last few years I haven't really had that many incidents (until the British F3's a few weeks back) and still feel a bit hesitant when dealing with an incident.

The other main reason for me is flagging. I've only done 5, maybe 6 meetings as a trainee flag, and to be honest, its something I'd rather not do, I just struggle with it a bit, and don't really enjoy it. Hats off to those that can and do. In my opinion, other than understanding what each flag is for (for safety reasons amongst others), I would prefer it if I only had to do flagging if I wanted to go in that direction.

I have no objections to being "assessed" for an upgrade for Incident though. I've seen a few people go through it, and its always come across in a friendly way, not stressful at all. Being in the right place at the right time with an examiner is another thing all together though.

[pauln]

Being in the middle of it at the moment (Track graded at present) I think that you do need a proper assessment to upgrade - just being there a number of times doesn't mean that you know what you're doing. I also think that you should experience something other than incident to get through - though not necessarily flags. As the aim is to produce marshals with a broader knowledge and experience, perhaps the option to do a couple of days in one of the specialist areas rather than flags/incident would be the way forward.

[Lord Summerisle]

Another one here. I was a White badge for a few years, and the only reason i upgraded what because i fancied trying the Brit GP, which ment being a green badge.

This year will be my 3rd GP. And i am still a green badge - and no intension of upgrading - i never do incident, so wouldnt meet the requirements any way. I enjoy flagging. I have more interest in doing more in the Pits and may be startline than i do in being an incident marshal.

Same with hillclimbing and sprints - I have been marshalling those for around 6, 7 years.... an still classed as a trainee.

[aland]

Originally Posted by Alan.F

I am a green badge and have been for 3yrs and will probably stay this way as i joined the orange brigade to be an incident marshal, Having to flag is rubbish to go to red if i wanted to be a flaggie i would have taken this side of it up, I dont agree with being forced to do it.

x2, agree totally with that, i tried flagging but due to my dyslexia and dyspraxia I cant write a no8 never mind wave a flag in that way, I have spoken to my chief marshal and cheif track and they treat me as an experienced marshal and are prepared to use me as an I/O if the situation requires it. I can deal with all incident stuff no probs but I just cannot wave a flag. Really need to e-mail my MSA rep who hapens to be our senior COC to see if the msa will give me expemtion on the flagging and allow me to upgrade

[deley]

So some individuals "don't like the idea that they have to be tested on their skills as marshals" [original post] ...... Why?

It is not a test, it is not supposed to be difficult..... it is just that someone is keeping an eye on them to see what/how they do and asking a few questions to check their knowledge etc during a day on the bank.

Particularly for Trainee to Track, if people don't want to u/g they don't have to but should then sometimes expect that still having a "white badge" might well result in the age old question being asked of " I see you are a trainee - how many meetings have you done" especially when there are people who might not have worked with someone before.

The whole point of having a "grading" structure is so that people organising marshals for an event can look at arranging the marshalling resources for the event based on a reasonable expectation that a person of a certain grade can act and behave at a "known level" and assume certain responsibilities. (Yes, I know it is the case that there may be some individuals who might not "live up to their badge" and yes there might be individuals who are "way more that their grade might suggest" - no system is perfect).


I will not bother to fuel the "have to flag to upgrade" discussion as this was done to death several threads ago.....


Keep safe

Dave

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by deley

Particularly for Trainee to Track, if people don't want to u/g they don't have to but should then sometimes expect that still having a "white badge" might well result in the age old question being asked of " I see you are a trainee - how many meetings have you done" especially when there are people who might not have worked with someone before.

The whole point of having a "grading" structure is so that people organising marshals for an event can look at arranging the marshalling resources for the event based on a reasonable expectation that a person of a certain grade can act and behave at a "known level" and assume certain responsibilities. (Yes, I know it is the case that there may be some individuals who might not "live up to their badge" and yes there might be individuals who are "way more that their grade might suggest" - no system is perfect).

Indeed

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by deley

I will not bother to fuel the "have to flag to upgrade" discussion as this was done to death several threads ago.....

Yes you are certainly right about that Dave. It has been discussed at length and I still get my ear bent on circuit about the same.

It seems a fair conclusion from those discussions that the number of flag days required, especially Green to Red, is unpopular and is actively preventing a significant percentage of otherwise reasonable upgrades.

However, despite the clear unpopularity and reasoned arguments against it, the requirement still remains unchanged. I see no harm in pushing for a change, or tweak, that would appear to improve the system for all.

[Slipstick]

So given that I actually enjoy flagging but dislike and am not good at incidenting what do you reckon are the chances of me upgrading from Trainee to Track if I only do 2 days on incident and 20 or 30 days flagging ?

Steve
(yes, there is always one )