One Open Wheel Racing Series!

[BlueStang]

Dov - I like a lot of your choices. I would also include Kentucky (decent fan base w/out a NASCAR ticket tie-in, and good racing) in the ovals. Richmond is a challenge, if we're looking for diversity. I am not a fan of Naz...I think it is one of the IRL "dawgs." If it were up to standards, I'd like to see Pocono come back.

As for the roads and streets, I like RA, Mid-Ohio, and Cleveland (when I was a kid, it was my second-favorite, behind Indy). I like "competitive" curcuits where cars can actually pass on the track...at Long Beach, the announcers conceded early on that there were few places to pass on that course, which to me leads to boring racing. I will have to try to catch some of the others this season and pay more attention to what I like or dis-like about them than I have before. Maybe interested CART fans can do the same with the IRL ovals.

As for drivers...I would like to see more Americans BUT I don't mind the foreign drivers, either. I have seen a few foreign drivers that have said they dream of running in the Indy 500...Dan Wheldon was one, and another was a British (I think) gal who I think runs stock cars at the moment. I think that is great. What I would rather not see are drivers who don't really want to be in the series, but that are looking towards, or wishing they were, somewhere else.

Blue

[Lee Janotta]

Originally posted by evo
Lee, if you're going to lump Canadian and American drivers together, you might as well include the Mexicans and call it North American drivers. In that case, CART isn't doing that bad. 9 of the 19 drivers are North American (and only one of those is a "pay-hack")

In the IRL, 13 of 25 drivers are American. So the ratio is about the same (of course, in the IRL, they are all from the USA).

2 Americans, 3 Canadians, and 4 Mexicans... Eh... I'd go with, at the very least 1 more American... Throw out that hack Lavin. I'd love to keep his sponsor around, though.... That Corona livery looks great! I wonder why they'd support such a sub-par driver? Always seem to be the way....

Actually, I'd say we need 66% to 75% North Americans in that case. In a big grid, that'd still leave room for Brazilians, Britons, and a few drivers who'd pay to circulate at the back.

But yeah, we can't afford to overlook Mexicans... They're just too obsessed with open-wheel racing to ignore.

[Lee Janotta]

Originally posted by Dov
These are the venues which I think are essential for a United Open Wheel Racing Series to run at.

Okay Dov... I'll lay my cards on the table.

In no particular order:
OVALS
(1)Phoenix
(2)MIS
(3)Milwaukee Mile
(4)Fontana
(5)Pocono
(6)Indy 500
(7)*Somewhere in the Seattle-Vancouver area*
(8)Texas
ROAD COURSES
(1)Road America
(2)Laguna Seca
(3)Spa-Francorchamps
(4)Portland
(5)Montreal
(6)Mexico(Fundidora)
(7)Mexico City
(8)Brands Hatch GP
(9)Jacarapagua
STREET COURSES
(1)Long Beach
(2)Surfer's Paradise
(3)Cleveland(airport)
(4)Toronto
(5)St. Pete's

[Jay]

Why would you kill Vancouver? It was probably the best street race last year in what were otherwise a lot of processions. And good luck trying to get them to aprove a race anywhere else in the area, they've been trying to do that for the last 5 years and have had zero co-operation.

Also, it's interesting that you guys are getting into driver quotas from certain countries...I can't agree with that at all.

I didn't mind Dov's selections either... Although Nazareth isn't really necessary.

[Lee Janotta]

Y'know, one other idea I had a while back, and I wanted to see if any of the IRL fans would go for it in a united series... Would be a winter series of 5 to 8 races in the southern US and Mexico. It'd be a totally unique thing, and could really help bring in fans, without even NASCAR running at the time.

It could also give young talent a chance to show their potential while the stars are on vacation, and earn themselves some prize money.

Perhaps the Monterrey, Mexico CART date could be moved to that, as well as St. Pete, along with Texas World Speedway, a second Mexico City date, and Willow Springs in California? Maybe throw in Homestead, Road Atlanta, and Barber Motorsport Park?

It's rather heavy on road courses, though... Hmm... I'd like to hear suggestions if anyone has some.

[Lee Janotta]

Originally posted by Jay
Why would you kill Vancouver? It was probably the best street race last year in what were otherwise a lot of processions. And good luck trying to get them to aprove a race anywhere else in the area, they've been trying to do that for the last 5 years and have had zero co-operation.

Also, it's interesting that you guys are getting into driver quotas from certain countries...I can't agree with that at all.

Because I'm trying to strike a compromise that will at least keep all parties content, Jay.

The war can't continue the way it has, we'll end up losing everything to NASCAR.

Oh, and speaking of that, I need to add another race to that schedule, at that oval in New Jersey that Mario and Paul Newman are trying to get built. We'd get a leg up if we could hit that market before NASCAR.

[Dakota Hogback]

Originally posted by Lee Janotta
Because I'm trying to strike a compromise that will at least keep all parties content, Jay.

The war can't continue the way it has, we'll end up losing everything to NASCAR.

Oh, and speaking of that, I need to add another race to that schedule, at that oval in New Jersey that Mario and Paul Newman are trying to get built. We'd get a leg up if we could hit that market before NASCAR.

Could you 'splain to me how this "compromise" brings two technologically and culturally disparate groups together? Cuz I ain't seein' it. It looks to me like a good plan for NASCAR to continue to get America's best known and most promising open wheel talent. How does your compromise collect the future Tony Stewarts and Jeff Gordons and keep them racing open wheelers?

[Lee Janotta]

Hmm... Nope, I guess I can't, other than that it should bring more sponsors back, thereby providing teams with the funds to bring in good drivers.

Perhaps we could use a scholarship system or something? I dunno.

Road racers are having just as much trouble breaking into CART, though.

[Dov]

To be honest with everybody, the only ovals that interest me are...Phoenix, MIS, Milwaukee Mile, Fontana, Indy 500 and Pocono (I forgot about Pocono earlier). I new that we had to add a few more ovals to the schedule, so that's why I threw in Chicagoland, Nazereth, Texas and Richmond. Blue...I don't no much about the Kentucky and Richmond ovals...so I guess I will have to watch the IRL races at those venues. If the racing cars in the UOWRS have the same specs as the ChampCars from a couple years ago...then Texas Speedway would have to be taken of the schedule. CART had to cancel that race (Texas) because the drivers were getting dizzy and having headaches.

Lee...could you explain more about this winter series that races in the southern U.S. and Mexico. Do only the rookies from the UOWRS race in this winter series? How does this winter series relate to the UOWRS? It sounds like an interesting idea. I read on some racing website around a month ago that Jacarapagua will be torn down in the near future. Have you heard anything about this? I also agree that we (United OW-R Series) have to get to that new oval in New Jersey, before NASCAR get's it.

Jay...Lee, Blue and myself agree that we would like to see 2-3 Americans...2-3 Canadians and 2-3 Mexicans in a United OW-R Series. As long as they are quality drivers. That said, Lee was saying that team owners should hire drivers based on merit. I agree...but what if most of the drivers who deserve seats in the UOWRS are foreigners? It's something to think about guys.

[Jay]

I'd prefer a series that had the best drivers they could get....if they happen to come frmo Europe or South America, so be it. I couldn't support any series that had rules about drivers being from certain countries. At least, you couldn't claim it to be world class. Then again, nobody did ever claim the IRL was world class...lol.

[Lee Janotta]

Jay, that last comment was really unnecessary, seeing as this discussion's taking place on the IRL forum.

A nationality quota written into the rules would be the wrong way to go, absolutely... I was thinking more along the lines of a scholarship system, whereby the champion in Toyota Atlantics, Infiniti Pro Series, USAC Silver Bullet, and World of Outlaws (or perhaps the top finisher with less than 10 years pro experience), would get a sizeable subsidy to run in the winter series, along with one hand-picked youngster who'd shown huge promise in another series (ALMS, SWC, etc.)

The winter series, as I see it, would use year-old chassis, whichever had been the widest-used manufacturer of that year. These would be prepared to spec and also use a spec powerplant. Something cheap and durable making about 600hp. Probably forced induction, so you don't have to set an artifically low RPM limit like F3000 does. That, or a pushrod V8... Something like old F5000.

Either way, there'd be a few series regulars running mostly for the fun of it, along with young guns hoping to get noticed. It should draw a pretty good audience on TV and in the stands, with very little other racing going on at the time.

And Dov, Jay... My point on more Americans remains the same... People want to see drivers they can actually relate to and understand in interviews... Not to mention, these are our damn drivers, and if we don't look out for them, who will? Plenty of other countries have major sponsorship that subsidizes their sponsors. Cripes, the city of Kuala Lumpur paid part of Yoong's expenses last year in F1! You can't expect our guys to come out ahead on an uneven playing field.

[Down F0rce]

Originally posted by Lee Janotta
Jay, that last comment was really unnecessary, seeing as this discussion's taking place on the IRL forum.

I agree. For someone that is supposed to be a moderator, that's not really setting an example to the other members now is it?

[Dov]

Lee...of course you want drivers (Americans) you can relate to. If these young American drivers who are coming up through the ranks have the talent of a Mears, Sullivan, Unser and a Foyt, then I understand. But what if these young American/Canadian drivers only have the talent of a Herta, Barron and a Gidley...would you rather watch these young American/Canadian talentless drivers race in a united series or would you rather see young foreign drivers who have the skill level of a Zanardi, Montoya and a DaMatta. I agree, our countries (CAN/US) should do plenty more to help sponsor our young drivers who are trying to make it to the top level of motor racing. All Im trying to say is...drivers should be hired based upon their skill level and not what country they come from.

[Lee Janotta]

Originally posted by Dov
Lee...of course you want drivers (Americans) you can relate to. If these young American drivers who are coming up through the ranks have the talent of a Mears, Sullivan, Unser and a Foyt, then I understand. But what if these young American/Canadian drivers only have the talent of a Herta, Barron and a Gidley...would you rather watch these young American/Canadian talentless drivers race in a united series or would you rather see young foreign drivers who have the skill level of a Zanardi, Montoya and a DaMatta. I agree, our countries (CAN/US) should do plenty more to help sponsor our young drivers who are trying to make it to the top level of motor racing. All Im trying to say is...drivers should be hired based upon their skill level and not what country they come from.

Yeah, I certainly hear where you're coming from Dov... But we actually produce some excellent drivers, but they can't get rides here unless they go to NASCAR. A.J. Allmendinger's coming up, Paul Edwards would be fantastic here, I've love to see what Phil Giebler could do in a Champcar, Sam Hornish is without a doubt the real deal, and could probably do very well on a road course... There are quite a few young guys who've run in sports/GT cars over the last couple years who've been blazingly fast... And, of course, we let Jeff Gordon and Tony Stewart get scooped up by NASCAR. I'm sure there are Canadian drivers in the same boat... Loads of talent, but no way to break into the big time. That's why I think a strong scholarship program might be the best way to go.

I don't think anyone wants to see the Brazilians or anyone else locked out... Just to see some parity that reflects the heavy North American schedule, and lets us show the best we've produced to the rest of the world.

[Jay]

Originally posted by Down F0rce
I agree. For someone that is supposed to be a moderator, that's not really setting an example to the other members now is it?

I'm completely entitled to my opinion, even as a moderator, and that is the IRL is not a world class series, and not worth merging with if you're Cart. All Cart would need is Indy and perhaps Michigan and the rest is worth dumping. That's my opinion, like it or lump it.

I don't think it's worth it if Cart has to make some of the changes discussed here. I'd rather see Cart become a smaller, lower budget series with a profile similar to ALMS than throw away everything it stands for to get a big TV contract. If I were Cart, I'd look at reducing costs to make a business model that can work without the IRL.

I'm really not a big fan of the month of May either... as soon as it's over Cart fans will completely forget about Indy and merging with the IRL. That shows that the only thing Cart wants is Indy and the rest isn't worth it.

[Dov]

Agreed. Now let's get back to the topic...United Open Wheel Racing Series. (my thread is a reply to Lee's last thread)

[Jay]

Originally posted by Lee Janotta
Sam Hornish is without a doubt the real deal, and could probably do very well on a road course...

He was pretty average in Atlantic when it came to road courses. His best road-course finish was a 6th at Laguna which was mainly due to a fair bit of attrition. For the most part he was a mid-fielder. He's definately an oval guy.

[Dov]

Jay...that is your opinion, but you don't speak for all CART fans! Sure, CART could keep trying to go at it alone, but do you honestly think that we (CART) would survive? The IRL will fold not much longer after CART folds. If you only like road racing, then maybe you should just watch F1. I don't want a United Series to become another NASCAR, but on the other hand, I don't want it (UOWRS) to become another F1! Together we stand, but divided we fall!!!

[Jay]

That's the thing though, the IRL doesn't want a "together series", they want to kill Cart and take over what's left. That's basically what Roger Penske was getting at. That's the unified series that many of you speak of here - the IRL with a token road course or two. No Toronto, no Montreal, no Mexico City or Monterrey, no Vancouver, no St. Petes, no Miami, no Cleveland, Portland, etc etc.

I think Cart can survive if they foget about Indy completely and start to carve out their own niche. Indy would be good for the TV, etc, but that's not going to happen and Cart has to deal with it (they are). Cart is trying to compete with Indy which may or may not work. I really wouldn't mind if Cart simply became a smaller, lower budget series of mostly street/road circuits with an oval or two.

[Lee Janotta]

Jay, you don't go to another man's house, then insult his wife.

Mario suggested it was up to the fans to fix the rift, and the whole idea of this thread was to discuss what it'd take to get the two camps back together.

More and more, the idea of either series surviving on it's own reminds me of the man who built his house upon sand. CART especially, much as I love it, lacks a solid foundation.

I've heard a lot of good give-and-take between fans of the two series here, and I've honestly learned quite a bit about where the other side is coming from.

If you, TG, Pook, Penske, Mikey, or anyone else don't want to be a part of it, the door's right over there.

[The Snout]

Well Mario is right. It is up to the fans hence this whole thread. The fans have more clout than anyone combined, the question is a) do we want to use it , b) what do we all want ? What can we agree to do as fans from both series ? Do we even want to act as united fans from both series ? These are the questions. But speaking for myself, I've
just wanted openwheel popularity back where is was, with all the best drivers and teams in one place, one series , pulling together. I've waited for the few to decide the fate of the many, and after 7 years we still have civil war. Well I've had enough myself of firing out of my CART trench, I'm getting up to go out into no mans land and see if there are any other fans on either side that want to try and pack this war up so we can all go home.

All the venues etc that have been mentioned above are fine with me. As for drivers I want the best, which means each nation has a responsibility to create a system so their best can be in the running for rides.

[Jay]

fair enought Lee, I'll watch you guys. But, I don't think reconcilliation is possible with the current players involved, and I dont think the fans have any power to change the people involved. The problem is not deciding which tracks and which drivers we want, but about two very different groups of people with very different ideas about what American open-wheel racing should be and who should run it.

[Dov]

I disagree Jay. The split between CART and the IRL is a family divided. I believe there are fans in both series who no how good a united series would be. They are not F1 fans and they are not NASCAR fans. They are IndyCar racing fans. They remember a time when IndyCar was the most challenging and most exciting brand of racing in the world. IndyCar fans remember drivers like the Andretti's, Unser's, Rahal, Mears, D. Sullivan, Foyt, Mansell, Emmo, and Villeneuve. Guys that could race on small, medium, speedway, flat and banked ovals...road courses, street courses and even an airport. The only people who are being played are the fans. The players (TG and his buddies) don't want to reconcile? Who Cares! It's not for them to decide annymore. The fans are tired of this sh1t and I for one will not sit on my a$$ any longer and do nothing about it. If that means not buying any CART/IRL merchandise or any of their sponsors merchandise, then so be it. Boycott their races. Sending petitions signed by Mario Andretti and thousands of fans to Chris Pook and Tony George...telling them to sit down and work something out (with the help of Mario,Foyt,Gurney,Mears,and Emmo), or they will lose countless numbers of loyal racing fans. (One series)the best tracks + the best drivers = the best racing in the world!

[DNQ]

Just thinking about this...might be nice to set up an online petition and see what we can come up with. Afterall, it's the fans who ultimatly pay for any racing series's survival...

[rustyfan]

Originally posted by Jay
But, I don't think reconcilliation is possible with the current players involved, and I dont think the fans have any power to change the people involved. The problem is not deciding which tracks and which drivers we want, but about two very different groups of people with very different ideas about what American open-wheel racing should be and who should run it.

In my opinion that sums it up perfectly.