Bathurst 1000 - is there something wrong with it?

[Falcadore]

Originally Posted by redesp

3 drivers: 1 regular, 1 aussie, 1 international = 54(ish laps each)

That's kinda 12 Hour-ish. And hard to police that 54-ish laps becuase based on fuel mileage you will be deliberately crippling some teams when fortunes runs against them they then have to suddenly make an unscheduled pitstop for a driver change? Some lessons from the 1997 Bathurst 1000 should be learnt here.

Pole based on averaged qualifying times

On race day each team has the driver order picked at random.

This gives the ability for regular drivers to drive against the other two and should mix up the feild in respect of competitiveness.

OK, this is fine for amateur level racing but really not for professional racing.

No open pit lane for safety cars.

Craig Lowndes just called for this one.

Bring up the first 4 front running "Fujitsu" (or whatever it will be next year) Series cars to boost the numbers... or at least get 32 Cars on the Grid!

Bit pointless. With all the Fujitsu series drivers (who provide most of the budget) in the top six or seven teams committed to racing in the pro-teams, they have no way of being able to afford an entry other than with pay drivers from the back of the Fujitsu grid or from other series with little V8 Supercar experience. This one couldn't work, and the last few years have proved that.

[Falcadore]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

How about the powers that be separate the event time wise from the Gold Coast Indy race, and stop the commentary team from bleating on about how fantabulous it will be to get to Indy.

The promotion and maintenance of the enigma that is Bathurst has somehow been lost in recent years. Years ago Bathurst was IT! And afforded such status by the Mike Raymond-led #7 crew... Now, its the prelude to the Gold Coast

That's because it has always been in V8 Supercar best interests to de-mystify Bathurst in order the get people to pay attention to more than one race per year, which according to TV ratings, is still the standard practice.

This one won't change and likely will get worse.

[Falcadore]

Originally Posted by Scrut

More cars.

Less saftey cars.

Originally Posted by Langers

Too many safety cars

Race not long enough (no car nursing required)

Originally Posted by E36ST

More types / models of cars racing. That was the drawcard for me of the Group A days etc, so much more variety. And yes even the controversial introduction of cars like the Nissan, they really shook things up... and we're still talking about it 20 years later

Originally Posted by E36ST

Oh, and the ability for privateers or non-regular teams to enter. To me the special Bathurst events were a Falcon or BMW or something up the front and a guy in a Ford Anglia at the back. Maybe that this approach is just no longer possible, but I personally enjoy watching the Bathurst 12hr (from what little we get of it here) more than the October main event.

Originally Posted by F J Nedos

Don't make it part of the championship.

All of these points are addressed by the Bathurst 12 Hour. You have been given what you want already, why don't you support it?

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by E36ST

Oh, and the ability for privateers or non-regular teams to enter. To me the special Bathurst events were a Falcon or BMW or something up the front and a guy in a Ford Anglia at the back. Maybe that this approach is just no longer possible, but I personally enjoy watching the Bathurst 12hr (from what little we get of it here) more than the October main event.

Originally Posted by F J Nedos

Don't make it part of the championship.

As an outsider who first saw this when it was televised by the BBC simply because it was such a great event, I think those two posts sum it up for me. Make it something you can enter without being part of a fairly narrow championship.

[Alan52]

Motor racing fans (the sort of people who post on forums) find Bathurst just as big a deal as it always has been.TV ratings show that the once a year viewer has deserted the race in the V8 Supercar era with the number of people watching now half a million less now than 30 years ago even though the population is much larger.These people are not going to return to watch the current NASCAR like formula.There are 3 things that I would like to see change from an enthusiast point of view 1_less safety cars.Lookat Le Mans and see the sort of incidents that are cleaned up under local yellows.Schenken is always looking to ,in the words of Paul Keating (first time his name has ever been brought up in a philosophical discussion on motor racing?) "flick the switch to showbiz".The safety car he brought out in 2006 when Jason Richards was parked in the far corner of the Chase represented a nadir in poor judgement calls. 2More cars.Encourage the top Development teams to race by having no round at Bathurst,no rounds for 6 weeks before and after and no requirement to also race in the Sandown 500. 3Get rid of the current pro/am driver restrictions.Walkinshaw and 888 have won every Bathurst since 2000 and many of the other team owners thought this rule would give them a chance.These 2 teams have still dominated the 2 pro/am Bathurst 1000's so it hasn't worked.All it does is make the race seem even more like just another round which might be exciting to the marketing people at V8 Supercars but insults the heritage of the race.

[Oldtony]

Originally Posted by Falcadore

All of these points are addressed by the Bathurst 12 Hour. You have been given what you want already, why don't you support it?

Exactly Falcadore. It is a much more interesting event to watch even if it has sort of departed from Australian race what you can buy tradition.
The problem is the Media, and thus the sponsorship people haven't cottoned on to the shift in viewre preference as yet.
The next step is live broadcast and watch the ratings grow for a couple of years.
Then as the interest in space frame specials falls off October can go to the longer length and genuine production car status.
Oh well, in my lifetime, just, maybe.

[Axeman444]

i think people need to realise that times change, and the Bathurst 1000 will also need to change. We can't stay living in the 70's and 80's.

More cars? Won't work under the present structure. The top DV8 cars will have no drivers, as the regulars are strapped into main game teams. There are wildcards available, and what has happened with those? nothing apart from Shannons this year. 1 slot from 5 taken up isn't promising.

Safety Car issues? I think most people agree on the closing of pit lane under yellow, or whatever else, to afford better safety. Its been done to death.

"down to the last 30 laps"? cars have been engineered over time to be bullet proof, and as such they all last til the end. This combined with Safety cars means that 90% still have a chance over the last 30 laps. Not quite reality though with maybe 4 cars the only ones with a real chance. You can't change this either

nothing apart from changing the types of machinery raced will fix anyones concerns posted on here

[ford71]

Originally Posted by Falcadore

Or 12 Hours? Wait that race exists.

Where did Jnr Johnson finish in the last 12 hour race?
How did Lowndes fair?
Did Frosty score a podium?

Originally Posted by Falcadore

You have been given what you want already

Not quite

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by Axeman444

i think people need to realise that times change, and the Bathurst 1000 will also need to change. We can't stay living in the 70's and 80's.

More cars? Won't work under the present structure. The top DV8 cars will have no drivers, as the regulars are strapped into main game teams. There are wildcards available, and what has happened with those? nothing apart from Shannons this year. 1 slot from 5 taken up isn't promising.

Safety Car issues? I think most people agree on the closing of pit lane under yellow, or whatever else, to afford better safety. Its been done to death.

"down to the last 30 laps"? cars have been engineered over time to be bullet proof, and as such they all last til the end. This combined with Safety cars means that 90% still have a chance over the last 30 laps. Not quite reality though with maybe 4 cars the only ones with a real chance. You can't change this either

nothing apart from changing the types of machinery raced will fix anyones concerns posted on here

could you maybe explain to me how closing pitlane during safety cars will make for a better race? I fail to see any benefit, in fact i see more negatives to this than positives from a better race point of view.

In theory it would kill staregy and all cars would pit at exactly the same time so as not to lose out to a SC which could happen a lap latter.

there are only three ways to make Bathurst more attractive,

1st and this would be stupid to, make the other races less attractive.
2nd shorten the race
3rd more brands as you mentioned, (although i am doubtful of this) which will hopefully happen under COTF, but that is already causing complaints on here with some people with a nostalgic view of the passed which has forgotten the bad things

[Alan52]

Originally Posted by peckstar

there are only three ways to make Bathurst more attractive,

1st and this would be stupid to, make the other races less attractive.
2nd shorten the race
3rd more brands as you mentioned, (although i am doubtful of this) which will hopefully happen under COTF, but that is already causing complaints on here with some people with a nostalgic view of the passed which has forgotten the bad things

No there isn't.To rebut your 3 points.1No one has mentioned making other races less attractive except you.There is a "specialness " that 1000k's around Mount Panorama has that other V8 races can't come close to replicating no matter how much hype is thrown at them. 2Again it is the long distance that makes it special.Rememberthe spectator indifference to the V8 sprint races at Bathurst in 95 and 96.No one has ever suggested reducing Le Mans to a spectator friendly 6 hours would be a good idea or make it more attractive. 3The more brands argument is irrelevant if they are all rear wheel drive V8's as the people who have left the building clearly can't relate to NASCAR clones no matter how many different name badges are stuck on them to try and differentiate them.

[db120176]

Originally Posted by Scrut

Less saftey cars.

Can this be avoided? Is the use of the safety car mandated by the FIA?

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by Alan52

No there isn't.To rebut your 3 points.1No one has mentioned making other races less attractive except you.There is a "specialness " that 1000k's around Mount Panorama has that other V8 races can't come close to replicating no matter how much hype is thrown at them. 2Again it is the long distance that makes it special.Rememberthe spectator indifference to the V8 sprint races at Bathurst in 95 and 96.No one has ever suggested reducing Le Mans to a spectator friendly 6 hours would be a good idea or make it more attractive. 3The more brands argument is irrelevant if they are all rear wheel drive V8's as the people who have left the building clearly can't relate to NASCAR clones no matter how many different name badges are stuck on them to try and differentiate them.

1. The reason i mentioned making other less attractive , is because some other rounds have got so good and offer so much that they have taken the shine of Bathurst, Thus to make Bathurst stand out the others have to diminish, but as i said thats a stupid idea and wont happen.

2. part of the problem with bathurst is that because SC's come out with 30 laps to go (and have for about half of the Bathursts now) its all about making sure you are in the right place for the end race. Thats not going to change, without some serius infrastructure changes (read $). Therefore shorter race eliminates that time of getting to the end race. we can have a race Saturday and a race sunday.

3. you may be right, you may not be, we cant say, because we have never done it, some people wont like it, others will, time will tell on that one

At the same time, i really like bathurst, I already have my ticket for next year, I dont have a problem with it

[one five five]

Originally Posted by peckstar

2. part of the problem with bathurst is that because SC's come out with 30 laps to go (and have for about half of the Bathursts now) its all about making sure you are in the right place for the end race. Thats not going to change, without some serius infrastructure changes (read $). Therefore shorter race eliminates that time of getting to the end race. we can have a race Saturday and a race sunday.

Half the Bathursts??

Actually, its only this decade that safety cars in the last 30 laps have become the regular problem they are

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by one five five

Half the Bathursts??

Actually, its only this decade that safety cars in the last 30 laps have become the regular problem they are

really why would that have been any different to any other year that we had safety cars (which is more than half)

Allan Moffat 1988 complining how the ANZ sierra cooked its motor under SC, lap 129 (or 32 laps from the end)

when were they dreadful 2 SC, that really screwed up the race

was it 1995, when Larry won courtesy of a SC with 20 laps to go?

oh yeah and this decade is only 2 years (or maybe 1), so you are talking 12 years then, which is a quarter by itself

[one five five]

Originally Posted by peckstar

really why would that have been any different to any other year that we had safety cars (which is more than half)

Allan Moffat 1988 complining how the ANZ sierra cooked its motor under SC, lap 129 (or 32 laps from the end)

when were they dreadful 2 SC, that really screwed up the race

was it 1995, when Larry won courtesy of a SC with 20 laps to go?

oh yeah and this decade is only 2 years (or maybe 1), so you are talking 12 years then, which is a quarter by itself

If you had bothered to read my post, i said its only in the past decade (and by decade i meant last 10 years, but you already knew that) that it has been a regular problem

1988 then 1995 don't strike me as too regular, especially as both races featured 2 safety cars total each for the entire races.

Infact all dry races prior to the end of the twentieth century featured very little safety car interference.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by one five five

If you had bothered to read my post, i said its only in the past decade (and by decade i meant last 10 years, but you already knew that) that it has been a regular problem

1988 then 1995 don't strike me as too regular, especially as both races featured 2 safety cars total each for the entire races.

Infact all dry races prior to the end of the twentieth century featured very little safety car interference.

I think what you are saying, is you dont really remember, or more likely it just was not drawn to your attention

if you went back, you would find that most years had a late race SC that brought the race back to gether for an end race,

Its just that in many of those year half the field or more didnt finish or problems had caused only a few cars to be on the lead lap, where as now big chunks of the field are competitive and can run on the lead lap all day and so be there at the finish for a race in the end game.

[Steve Carter]

The Bathurst 1000 has never been better havent missed a telecast since the late 60s - now lets build the Bathurst 12 Hour into something of magnitude its a great formulae would love free to air live coverage.

[ForumNick]

Originally Posted by one five five

If you had bothered to read my post, i said its only in the past decade (and by decade i meant last 10 years, but you already knew that) that it has been a regular problem.....

NO! .... if you bothered to read your own post... what you 'actually' said was:

"Actually, its only this decade that safety cars in the last 30 laps have become the regular problem they are"

There is a BIG difference between 'this decade' and 'the past decade'


Pecky : 1
155 : 0

[one five five]

Originally Posted by peckstar

I think what you are saying, is you dont really remember, or more likely it just was not drawn to your attention

if you went back, you would find that most years had a late race SC that brought the race back to gether for an end race,

I remember perfectly fine, but i've been around here long enough to know better than to get into an argument....

[Falcadore]

Originally Posted by ford71

How did Lowndes fair?

He finished second and set a new lap record co-driving with Luffy in an Audi. Bairdo was third. David Wall was fourth. David Russell was fifth. Allan Simonsen was sixth. Plenty of V8 drivers if that is your thing. Chaz Mostert and Ashley Walsh were 16th.

Steven Johnson finished 13th in his Falcon GT.

So what was your point again?

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by one five five

I remember perfectly fine, but i've been around here long enough to know better than to get into an argument....

seriusly part of the purpose of forums is to debate.

so wha years didnt we have a lare race SC that brought the race together?

[emjaya]

Remove the 7500rpm limit from the engines and the restrictions from the gearing and final drive.

Bring the Dev series cars into the race and fill the grid. There is enough drivers in the world to fill the seats.

[St00ge]

Originally Posted by emjaya

Remove the 7500rpm limit from the engines and the restrictions from the gearing and final drive.

Bring the Dev series cars into the race and fill the grid. There is enough drivers in the world to fill the seats.

Best idea yet, it is not like the 5ltr can't handle it..

It is more a thing to do with dollars than capable cars and drivers to fill seats..

[ford71]

Originally Posted by Falcadore

He finished second and set a new lap record co-driving with Luffy in an Audi. Bairdo was third. David Wall was fourth. David Russell was fifth. Allan Simonsen was sixth. Plenty of V8 drivers if that is your thing. Chaz Mostert and Ashley Walsh were 16th.

Steven Johnson finished 13th in his Falcon GT.

So what was your point again?

Dammit!!
I knew I should have checked before putting Lowndes down to make the point

But yeah, you got the drift, the 12 hour exists but not in V8SC championship.

[Alan52]

Sometimes the Safety Car is needed even if it is the last part of the race.Will Davison in 2010 is a textbook example.However it seems Tim Schenken is often actively looking for reasons to bring it out to close up the field.Watching Le Mans the last 3 years has been a real eye opener to other ways of doing things.There with a field much larger and faster and with much greater disparity in car speed and driver ability/experience than Bathurst incidents that would always bring out the SC at Bathurst are cleaned up under local yellows.This is under the same FIA rules that people are saying are the reason Tim has to flick the switch here.At Bathurst crews down escape roads or behind track openings could clean up all or nearly all incidents at Murray's,Hell,the Chase and the corner at the end of Mountain Straight under local waved double yellows.If they don't think this is possible they should import the Race Director and some marshals from Le Mans.Looking to close up the race for the sake of the show cheapens the event.