Is Formula 1 broken?

[old man]

Interesting view from D Rencken on Autosport site suggesting Mercedes and Ferrari could hold the sport to ransom

[Casper]

I don't think it is broken but it is certainly not in a good place. It has been written a thousand times that there is no way to fix it because every one asked has a different take on the problem. To me that means it will continue to slide into mediocrity and will break if someone does not do something in the next few years. Patches on patches generally start leaking and the boat sinks.

[JeremySmith]

I believe that criticism of the sport is for the most part largely driven by the media, it's become like a feeding frenzy because they do not have much else to talk about ...
The cars are technologically speaking marvels of engineering .. If fans are not happy about having to pay to watch a sport supposedly they love then they are not true fans in my book, in this country we have been paying to watch F1 on television ever since I can remember .. Our race will be taking place again in Austin and I will be there along with many thousands of others ..

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

I believe that criticism of the sport is for the most part largely driven by the media, it's become like a feeding frenzy because they do not have much else to talk about ...
The cars are technologically speaking marvels of engineering .. If fans are not happy about having to pay to watch a sport supposedly they love then they are not true fans in my book, in this country we have been paying to watch F1 on television ever since I can remember .. Our race will be taking place again in Austin and I will be there along with many thousands of others ..

No, a lot of the media frenzy is driven by Mr E, not the press. Mercedes are decidedly unhappy with him, and made their feelings public yesterday. See: http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/me...ms-677580/?s=1

It seems as though nobody else inside F1 is allowed to criticise the health of the "sport" except for him, and he is upsetting more and more people. Totd has told him, publicly, to shut up and now the top man at Mercedes, not the team, are saying that he is damaging F1.

[Casper]

The criticism of high prices for spectators is a minor issue at best. The popularity of F1 is not driven by live spectators at track side rather it is driven by TV spectators who see it as boring. Given they outnumber the live spectator numbers by 100's of millions then it is they who have to be pacified and convinced to keep watching. Without the TV numbers the whole thing goes down the gurglar at high speed.

I suspect BE thinks he is untouchable but no one is indispensible in this world and we are all one heart beat away from the hereafter.

A lot of the problems would disappear with independent engine suppliers building motors to the regulations. It does not matter what the regs are but they should be built by multiple independent builders. If entrants want to build their own as Ferrari have always done and not always very well then so be it. There should be no restrictions on the number of suppliers at all, why anyone would think one supplier was a good idea beats me as all it does is make the category subject to possible problems like the supplier going bust.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Casper

A lot of the problems would disappear with independent engine suppliers building motors to the regulations. It does not matter what the regs are but they should be built by multiple independent builders. If entrants want to build their own as Ferrari have always done and not always very well then so be it. There should be no restrictions on the number of suppliers at all, why anyone would think one supplier was a good idea beats me as all it does is make the category subject to possible problems like the supplier going bust.

The problem there is that the cost of developing a PU to current specifications is way beyond the independent suppliers, regardless of whether that was just one or multiple specialist. And if a hybrid system along the lines of the current units is not be continued by an outside provider, then it is highly likely that F1 will lose Renault, Mercedes and Honda. All three of them are only in F1 because they believe that the current systems will have some crossover to their road going fleet, whether that be cars or trucks.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

The problem there is that the cost of developing a PU to current specifications is way beyond the independent suppliers, regardless of whether that was just one or multiple specialist. And if a hybrid system along the lines of the current units is not be continued by an outside provider, then it is highly likely that F1 will lose Renault, Mercedes and Honda. All three of them are only in F1 because they believe that the current systems will have some crossover to their road going fleet, whether that be cars or trucks.

And all the experts tell us that the manufacturers are the problem when in fact they are the glue holding the thing together because of the complex PU's. The idea of F1 leading the world in engine technology suddenly becomes questionable when looked at from that angle.

[S griffin]

Another recent article by Autosport said that F1 always answers questions no one is asking and they are right. Instead of going to the root of the problem or problems they decide to attack other areas and that's how we've ended up with things like the new 2016 quali or double points

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Casper

And all the experts tell us that the manufacturers are the problem when in fact they are the glue holding the thing together because of the complex PU's. The idea of F1 leading the world in engine technology suddenly becomes questionable when looked at from that angle.

Well, you have to remember that it was Renault that "threatened" the FIA/FOM that they would have to withdraw from F1 some years ago (I can't remember exactly when) if a new PU that had relevance to their road cars was not introduced. They ideally wanted it to be a smallish (around 1500-1600 cc) 4 pot ICE with a turbo plus whatever other hybrid technology that was proposed by the teams/FIA/FOM. Eventually they agreed on the V6 we have now, but only after Renault had to go cap in hand to the FIA to get the introduction delayed by a year because they hadn't finished their own unit; could be argued that they still haven't, 3 plus years later.

Then the Daimler board started getting cold feet about being involved in F1, but were pacified because the Mercedes team were able to show them that the new units were so much more efficient, and even that would be improved over the years. And following that, Honda agreed to participate on the understanding that the PUs would remain as the specification for at least until 2020, if not longer.

The fact that they are all in F1 now is because they were promised continuity and would have assumed, rightly in my mind, that F1 would only have one specification during that period. So yes, they are the glue that is holding it all together rather than holding it to ransom; it is highly unlikely that they would have been around after 2013 if a hybrid type unit had not been mandated; that would have been a justifiable commercial decision taken by them.

[Bakemono]

Originally Posted by LC2guy

Is F1 Broken & a shadow of its former self ? Yes.
Will I still get up at stupid o'clock to watch a Merc walkover in Oz ? Yes
Will I then moan about how F1 is cr&p & WEC is 100 times better ? Yes
Will I still continue to watch every GP " just in case of a good race " after that ? Yes

God Help me .......

I hear you. I look at it this way: at its worst, F1 is still better than Indycar racing and NASCAR.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Bakemono

I hear you. I look at it this way: at its worst, F1 is still better than Indycar racing and NASCAR.

If you don't actually like watching racing then it is probably true that F1 is better than Indycar.

Indycar racing has been really good and close lately!

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Well, you have to remember that it was Renault that "threatened" the FIA/FOM that they would have to withdraw from F1 some years ago (I can't remember exactly when) if a new PU that had relevance to their road cars was not introduced. They ideally wanted it to be a smallish (around 1500-1600 cc) 4 pot ICE with a turbo plus whatever other hybrid technology that was proposed by the teams/FIA/FOM. Eventually they agreed on the V6 we have now, but only after Renault had to go cap in hand to the FIA to get the introduction delayed by a year because they hadn't finished their own unit; could be argued that they still haven't, 3 plus years later.

And look where that has got them. Renault have a long history of F1 participation but very little of it could be called stellar IMHO. The only good thing they did was introduce turbos way back when. There is no reason that F1 has to be road relevant, it never was and never will be. When motors were archaic F1 specific motors had to be manufactured but these days some production motors could be used to race with suitable upgrades. The PU used today is too expensive for production so they can forget that.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Bakemono

I hear you. I look at it this way: at its worst, F1 is still better than Indycar racing and NASCAR.

You should have watched last year's IndyCar season.

[wimiu012uk]

Take away the engine rules, let them have a bucket of whatever fuel they want based on calorific value to last the race distance and let the engine manufacturers use whatever they want, whether it be engine and hybrid system etc. This would then be more relevant to fuel economy led car technology. The FIA could then set out a plan to gradually reduce the amount of fuel allowed over a set period of time. Take away all the stupid aero and have max two element rear wing and single element front wing and bring back steel brakes to increase braking zone length with the driver with the largest ones getting into the corner first. When was the last time you had carbon fibre brakes on your Merc C class, Renault Megane or Honda Civic along with a bespoke tailored 6 element front wing and DRS rear wing ?

[Sodemo]

The current qualifying changes to me a further confirmation of F1 trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist. Its the very definition of rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic.

There are far more things wrong with the sport than the qualifying day. Two things namely, the financial structure of small teams vs large teams and secondly the dominance of aero (which also partly comes into the small team vs large team point) which is hampering racing.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

The current qualifying changes to me a further confirmation of F1 trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist. Its the very definition of rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic.

There are far more things wrong with the sport than the qualifying day. Two things namely, the financial structure of small teams vs large teams and secondly the dominance of aero (which also partly comes into the small team vs large team point) which is hampering racing.

Brilliant analogy there mate

[bauble]

As someone who has seen Fangio, Ascari, and more modern drivers like Moss and Hawthorn sliding and drifting (four wheel) it seems to me that Formula 1 is not broken but rusty!

Back in them days motor racing was genuinely dangerous, yet no one complained, cars adopted attitude when driven hard, and tended to have pretty bad accidents if over driven.

Then in the sixties safety became increasingly important, and no matter how you view it, brought about a lot of the changes that have reduced the excitement. Alongside the increasing technology, that has made cornering relatively easy with cars literally 'stuck' to the road, and the lack of proper overtaking opportunities it has been a slow but steady decline into mediocrity.

Yes! It is faster, incredibly so, but lacks the most important element, proper wheel-to-wheel action with overtaking, at least possible without artificial aids.

It seems to me that it is simply rusting away.


Ok! I'll get back in my wheelchair now.

Very OAP,

bauble.

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by Casper

And look where that has got them. Renault have a long history of F1 participation but very little of it could be called stellar IMHO. The only good thing they did was introduce turbos way back when. There is no reason that F1 has to be road relevant, it never was and never will be. When motors were archaic F1 specific motors had to be manufactured but these days some production motors could be used to race with suitable upgrades. The PU used today is too expensive for production so they can forget that.

New, innovative technology is always expensive. Turbochargers were expensive shortly after their introduction, but within a few years manufacturers started producing turbocharged engines for their road cars.
Interestingly, Audi wishes to see hybrid power units to be introduced in DTM. Formula One is not on their agenda, because in the current political situation the series find itself in, there is not enough certainty about the use of hybrid technology in the future.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

New, innovative technology is always expensive. Turbochargers were expensive shortly after their introduction, but within a few years manufacturers started producing turbocharged engines for their road cars.
Interestingly, Audi wishes to see hybrid power units to be introduced in DTM. Formula One is not on their agenda, because in the current political situation the series find itself in, there is not enough certainty about the use of hybrid technology in the future.

I would have thought F1 is not on Audi's agenda, regarding hybrid power units because it's not relevant to their road cars, while DTM is.

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I would have thought F1 is not on Audi's agenda, regarding hybrid power units because it's not relevant to their road cars, while DTM is.

Hybrid power units are very relevant for Audi. However, Formula One is now entering its third season with them, while DTM is yet to introduce hybrid technology.

[fredd1]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Lewis should go to IndyCar. They race.

In between sweeping the track, they have been known to.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

Hybrid power units are very relevant for Audi. However, Formula One is now entering its third season with them, while DTM is yet to introduce hybrid technology.

Of course they are but F1 isn't relevant to Audi and their various road car programmes, while DTM is.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Of course they are but F1 isn't relevant to Audi and their various road car programmes, while DTM is.

I think that VAG's priorities are that they get the DTM to start using hybrid technology, which as you say they will use directly in relation to their road vehicles, but that would also possibly lead them to having an interest in F1 if the technology was similar. Furthermore, they won't consider F1 until it a) has medium to long term stability of rules and technology, and b) has medium to long term stability of ownership.

When those two come together, expect to see VAG in some guise in the F1 paddock.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

I think that VAG's priorities are that they get the DTM to start using hybrid technology, which as you say they will use directly in relation to their road vehicles, but that would also possibly lead them to having an interest in F1 if the technology was similar. Furthermore, they won't consider F1 until it a) has medium to long term stability of rules and technology, and b) has medium to long term stability of ownership.

When those two come together, expect to see VAG in some guise in the F1 paddock.

Audi have their LMP programme and now DTM, all good marketing vehicles, no pun intended. So if I were Audi I'd steer well clear of F1.

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Of course they are but F1 isn't relevant to Audi and their various road car programmes, while DTM is.

I fail to see the technical relevance of DTM. They are not production-based, many components are standardized and I cannot remember road cars being equipped with two air restrictors with a diameter of twenty-five millimeters each.

So, there must be something I overlook.