Question for Racetime

sevi · 1 Mar 2002, 23:33 (Ref:225482)

I am just wondering is it only the GP you are not allowed to cover with live results, or is this the new Nazi Avesco rules for the whole season?

sevi · 4 Mar 2002, 22:48 (Ref:228177)

this is the question racetime.

sevi · 7 Mar 2002, 06:04 (Ref:229756)

I will try once more to get an answer.

hello Racetime are you out there.

Ray Bell · 7 Mar 2002, 08:57 (Ref:229802)

Maybe the Nazis have incarcerated him?

RaceTime · 7 Mar 2002, 09:17 (Ref:229809)

sevi - first I don't watch these threads all the time - best, if you want me to answer one like this - email me to let me know you have asked. (Believe it or not - I have a real life which doesn't include sitting on these forums all day!)

Live timing - our version of which is called RaceView - was offered FREE of charge to Natsoft over 2 years ago. All they had to do was put in place the code to transfer the data, using a set protocol, to the INternet during a race meeting. If they had a net connection during a race meeting, and we knew they would be doing it, RaceView and live timing would automatically be transferred. No accounts to log into or server to connect to - it just 'did it'

Natsofts answer was 'No thanks - who is going to pay for it'

The answer to that, of course, was them for the minimal coding - it took us about 2-3 hours to code the actual data transfer code into our systems once we had the transport mechanisms all worked out - in all we invested something liike 9 months of coding, testing and countless $$$ on data transfer costs setting this up (our data transfer stuff ups and general testing cost us over $4,500 in data transfer costs alone during this period).

So a once off change was knocked back by Natsoft. We would have ended up paying server and data transfer costs (because the data came into our server and we were charged for it - NOT the sender). All that would have been charged back to the timing crews were the Internet conneciton charge and, apart from South Australia, NO STATE complained about this - the timekeepers in SA were and still are the ONLY track(s) to complain about having to pay to connect and send their results to the Internet.

In addition we had set the system up in such a way that up to 100 individual race meetings could be handled at once - so Australian race meetings were never going to be a problem for us.

Now enter AVESCO - who want to control all the timing themselves - including the Internet side of it. They didn't even want to talk about it to anyone.

So the simple answer is no - not available.

RaceTime · 7 Mar 2002, 09:22 (Ref:229812)

I should also point out that this particular thread ONLY appeared in my list of message tonight - it WAS NOT THERE yesterday when I checked the forum list.

sevi · 8 Mar 2002, 00:10 (Ref:230468)

Thanks Racetime.

Ray Bell · 8 Mar 2002, 03:16 (Ref:230564)

I gather you're pretty happy with the way things are going then...

And Tony Cochrane is one of your best mates?

RaceTime · 8 Mar 2002, 04:09 (Ref:230581)

LOL - I presume you are talking to me? <g>

If you get a chance, have a read of the condition printed on the back of the meda accreditation form for AVESCO this year - and then see if you can figure out why I refused to sign it...

Ray Bell · 8 Mar 2002, 04:18 (Ref:230583)

I'm not "lucky" enough to get that sort of paperwork...

I'm just an honest motor racing journalist, after all.

RaceTime · 8 Mar 2002, 04:38 (Ref:230592)

Hehe - well AVESCO consider people like myself, Michael Shaw, Crash etc as 'not so honest' because we work for electronic media only

Basically there agreement states that we agree to assign copyright to all electronic images we take as theirs and that we will, in no way, re-use, distribute or manipulate any of the AVESCO produced timing data - totally unenforceable mind you and I know at least two promoters who are waiting for a chance to prove this in court!

Ray Bell · 8 Mar 2002, 04:58 (Ref:230600)

Oh, that's reassuring...

But will they?

Jon one of them?

That's shocking, that business of them owning all the images... crazy... Shane Cowham has had threats of legal action over his paintings and has a patent attorney who reckons he'll fix them right up.

RaceTime · 8 Mar 2002, 05:14 (Ref:230605)

What they have been trying to do with copyright is have the picture takers (the photographers) assign the copyright to their images to AVESCO - unfortunately, my understanding of the Copyright Act, is that the original artist retains copyright in the image for a period of 5 years reagrdless of what is signed.

philneast · 8 Mar 2002, 05:20 (Ref:230607)

Another question Racetime,

What do they mean by electronic images?

Does this mean they are claming copyright on images taken at a race meeting?

RaceTime · 8 Mar 2002, 05:25 (Ref:230608)

This is a cut and paste from their accreditation form:

Under a Media Pass X, the Accredited Party and the Pass Holder may take still photographic images solely for customary editorial use in the print media (and their corresponding authorised Internet sites), and will be responsible for obtaining all necessary third party consents, as well as the prior express written permission of AVESCO, for any non-editorial or commercial use of these still photographic images. The Accredited Party and the Pass Holder acknowledges and agrees, and will do all things necessary to ensure, that any intellectual property rights in photographic images taken at the Events will on creation vest in, and remain the property of, AVESCO.
No person shall make or use sound recordings or radio broadcasts and / or take moving picture images of the Events without the prior express written permission of AVESCO.

and

No official timing, results or other data relating to the Events may be reproduced, stored in a retrieval system or transmitted in any form or by any electronic, mechanical, photocopying, recording, or broadcasting means or otherwise without the prior express written permission of AVESCO except for reproduction by local, national or international press in regular publications on sale to the public or accessible on their corresponding authorised Internet sites.

sevi · 8 Mar 2002, 05:32 (Ref:230610)

So what if you are just a spectator and had taken photos. Are you now not allowed to put them on a web site?
Or maybe I should ask are spectators still allowed to take camera's.

RaceTime · 8 Mar 2002, 05:51 (Ref:230614)

Good question and one I know a few photographers have asked and still not received an answer.

I guess it comes down to the fact that if you haven't signed the above agreement you have no contract with AVESCO.

It's like trying to take a video camera or recorder to see Kylie Minogue or Ricky Martin - in this situation you would expect to get frisked - at car races fortunately this isn't happening - yet!

Crash Test · 8 Mar 2002, 05:56 (Ref:230615)

Oi oi oi!

"Hehe - well AVESCO consider people like myself, Michael Shaw, Crash etc as 'not so honest' because we work for electronic media only

"
- Yesterday I went to the newsagent and purchased that Auto Action publication, in a printed form

I don't bother with one of those things- one of the regulations last year is that you have to go to 4 rounds throughout the year... even if we still had a Konica round, and if Indy counted, that would be three. If any of the southern rounds fall during my holidays, i might head down, hiding in the back of a Formula Ford transporter...

I'm friendly with the local race tracks (well, I suppose there is only one...) and can always seem to get in on a commentators pass, but usually sign in as media (AA) simply not to complicate the issue for any Dudley Doo-rights.

I've only brushed over copyright law, and I think you own the rights for a fair while over 5 years..

"...permission of AVESCO except for reproduction by local, national or international press..."
-blast! I had some intergalactic press lined up for the series, a darn shame that they'll have to pack up their space ship and go home

RaceTime · 8 Mar 2002, 06:04 (Ref:230617)

Ok - I forgot Michael with MSN as well - but you know what I mean.

And Copyright Law - that is also my understanding - it is something I believe you *cannot* divest to anyone else initially. If you took the image, wrote the story etc - if you remain alive for 5 years YOU own the copyright on it - no questions asked.

Crash Test · 8 Mar 2002, 06:08 (Ref:230619)

"you remain alive"
-Ah, there's your sticking point. Avesco has secretly been slipping poison in the carrot sandwiches that they feed the media with, so that they can create super-computer-robots to take our place. Luckily, all of the carrot sangas are gone by the time I make it back to the media center....

Now who's paranoid...

RaceTime · 8 Mar 2002, 06:10 (Ref:230620)

LOL - now aren't you glad I'm a coeliac and can't eat those sandwhiches they provide

Ray Bell · 8 Mar 2002, 06:22 (Ref:230625)

Ah, something they haven't changed!

Sandwiches were poor at Bathurst in 1965, I doubt that they've improved at all... maybe extra mustard!

Crash Test · 8 Mar 2002, 06:25 (Ref:230629)

In fact, I think I recently saw some 1965 vintage (now toasted) sandwiches, with similar aged milk to go with the coffee....

But I'm also suspicious of the coffee as being clumpy soil....

philneast · 8 Mar 2002, 22:31 (Ref:231222)

Thanks Racetime.

My interpretation (obviously biased in my favour!) is that using images for editorial purposes is ok, and that the photographer owns the coyright to those photos.

RaceTime · 8 Mar 2002, 22:58 (Ref:231246)

Using the images for editorial purposes - I would think you are correct, however, considering you cannot reassign copyright, then you can, in effect, do what you like with the photos.

My previous comment (about being frisked) raises that issue - if you, as a professional photographer, happen to go to a race meeting and take pictures from the public areas - AVESCO have absolutely no say whatsoever in what is done with or how the images are used or published.

Interesting scenario really. Hang you camera back over the fence line to take a picture 'But the image was taken from the public are TC - it's mine to do what I want with..'

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