BF or BA

peckstar · 29 Jun 2006, 10:13 (Ref:1644060)

based on an article in the courier mail ( as mentioned in another forum)
if the Ford BA win this weekend it will be its 25th win equal to the sierra's and only one win behind the VT the most winninist model ever.

the v8 rules say the BF is an acceptable vehicle in v8s, but if you read the time sheets at Natsoft or v8 supercars is says the car is BA and i went to all the key ford teams web sites and none mention the BF

I realise the differences are minimal if any, but does anyone know why the ford teams are running under BA instead of BF?

anthony81901 · 29 Jun 2006, 10:33 (Ref:1644067)

Quote:

Originally Posted by peckstar

if the Ford BA win this weekend it will be its 25th win equal to the sierra's and only one win behind the VT the most winninist model ever.

...although the VT only competed for 2.5 years vs 3.5 for the BA and 6 for the Sierra.

stmorri · 29 Jun 2006, 10:59 (Ref:1644084)

Quote:

Originally Posted by anthony81901

and 6 for the Sierra.

But the VT didn't have to compete against godzilla......remember Holden and their supporters "spat the dummy" because they couldn't win and got the fastest and best touring cars this country (and probably any other country) has ever seen banned and hence the VT's record number of wins......quite simple really......if you can't beat 'em, ban 'em!

anthony81901 · 29 Jun 2006, 12:07 (Ref:1644120)

Quote:

Originally Posted by stmorri

But the VT didn't have to compete against godzilla......remember Holden and their supporters "spat the dummy" because they couldn't win and got the fastest and best touring cars this country (and probably any other country) has ever seen banned and hence the VT's record number of wins......quite simple really......if you can't beat 'em, ban 'em!

I don't think it was just the Holden supporters who wanted to see the back of Godzilla...Group A as a concept was on its way out around the globe as promoters sought concepts that brought closer racing. Most Ford supporters were also happier to be following a home grown car rather than one that was never sold in Australia.

And the 2 years of Godzilla domination only came after 3 years of the Sierra being almost untouchable, can only recall 1 non Ford win in each of 88 and 89.

RS500 · 29 Jun 2006, 12:13 (Ref:1644124)

Quote:

But the VT didn't have to compete against godzilla......remember Holden and their supporters "spat the dummy" because they couldn't win and got the fastest and best touring cars this country (and probably any other country) has ever seen banned and hence the VT's record number of wins......quite simple really......if you can't beat 'em, ban 'em!

HAHA i would much rather see the old grp A Sierra's and GTR's drive over the current "one make series" that we all know as V8supercars.

lookleft · 29 Jun 2006, 13:11 (Ref:1644156)

Amen RS500

RotorFan · 29 Jun 2006, 13:21 (Ref:1644164)

That must be the reason FPR/888 have stuck with the "BA", to get that stat before updating to the BF. Updating to the BF is trivial isn't it? I can't see why they wouldn't do it, if not for this.

Lowndesfan6 · 29 Jun 2006, 20:48 (Ref:1644429)

The submission for the updates is minimal changes to the front and rear bumpers and a change to the side skirt, which I think they want to be a little more aero like similar to the holden skirts.
Popular demand sees that the Bonnet bulge is likely to stay.
There maybe a change in the structure to the rear wing to make it more stable.

Conrod Kieron · 30 Jun 2006, 02:44 (Ref:1644572)

Quote:

Originally Posted by anthony81901

...although the VT only competed for 2.5 years vs 3.5 for the BA and 6 for the Sierra.

To be fair, its no good comparing years of competition. Its far easier to rack up race wins in the current series vs when the Cossie was racing.

We need races entered vs races won for a better (but still not perfect)comparison, I suspect the mightly little Sierra would come out on top.

peckstar · 30 Jun 2006, 03:21 (Ref:1644584)

CK its round wins, not race wins

Conrod Kieron · 30 Jun 2006, 03:53 (Ref:1644597)

Thanks pec. Still, there were less rounds per year back in the Sierra days, Bathurst was also not a round of the ATCC back the neither

anthony81901 · 30 Jun 2006, 08:32 (Ref:1644683)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conrod Kieron

To be fair, its no good comparing years of competition. Its far easier to rack up race wins in the current series vs when the Cossie was racing.

We need races entered vs races won for a better (but still not perfect)comparison, I suspect the mightly little Sierra would come out on top.

The VT achieved its 26 wins in 34 meetings, a 76% success rate, the BA has won 24 in 47, a 51% success rate...how's that for parity!

Don't know exactly how may meetings Sierras were entered in from 87 to 92, but I think even in the bad days of the early 90's there were at least 9 ATCC rounds, so adding the Grand Prix and 2 enduros there were at least 12 meetings per year, giving the Sierra a succes rate of no more than 35%.

stmorri · 30 Jun 2006, 08:52 (Ref:1644694)

Quote:

Originally Posted by anthony81901

Most Ford supporters were also happier to be following a home grown car rather than one that was never sold in Australia.
.

I agree that there may have been some Ford supporters that were unhappy with the Sierras, but I haven't had the good fortune to meet either of them and with 2 Bathurst wins since '92 for the Falcons I'm sure they both can see the error in their judgement.

racer69 · 30 Jun 2006, 18:25 (Ref:1645138)

When talking Sierra's, remember two different Sierra models were used betweem 1987 and 1992 (in terms of ATCC rounds);

1987 -> Ford Sierra Cosworth
1988 - 1992 -> Ford Sierra Cosworth RS500

In fairness of course, it only affects one race win (Johnson at Adelaide International Raceway in 1987)

WebberForWDC · 1 Jul 2006, 11:24 (Ref:1645587)

A VX that is a VT supercar, that has virtually zero to do with a VT SS, and a VY/Z supercar that is a VX supercar with Ford style front suspension with or with out new engine....

Good to see that BA can undo the bad sportsmanship of the HMS empire and their use of lawyers to obtain and vigourously defend their supercar parity advantage.

Conrod Kieron · 2 Jul 2006, 01:57 (Ref:1645963)

Quote:

Originally Posted by anthony81901

The VT achieved its 26 wins in 34 meetings, a 76% success rate, the BA has won 24 in 47, a 51% success rate...how's that for parity!

Don't know exactly how may meetings Sierras were entered in from 87 to 92, but I think even in the bad days of the early 90's there were at least 9 ATCC rounds, so adding the Grand Prix and 2 enduros there were at least 12 meetings per year, giving the Sierra a succes rate of no more than 35%.

Actually, 87 was the Cossie Sierra, the next model was the RS500 which raced from 88-92, excluding the GP and Sandown (I can't find the results) there appears to be 48 races entered by the RS500, with 27 wins, far more than 35% win rate, but the VT does win

deeks6 · 2 Jul 2006, 11:11 (Ref:1646145)

Quote:

Originally Posted by WebberForWDC

Good to see that BA can undo the bad sportsmanship of the HMS empire and their use of lawyers to obtain and vigourously defend their supercar parity advantage.

You know the song ... "football, meat pies, kangaroos and - "

It's their God-Given Right, man!!!!!! Get with the system.

jiminee · 3 Jul 2006, 07:54 (Ref:1647063)

Quote:
A VX that is a VT supercar, that has virtually zero to do with a VT SS, and a VY/Z supercar that is a VX supercar with Ford style front suspension with or with out new engine....

Yes and lets remember that the Sierra featured a Hollinger 6 speed gearbox and a 9 inch diff.......they were a bit fragile before they inherited these right?
They were also built for a much larger market and based on a much more ideal base package and helped by a set rules that never came up with a fair method of equalising turbo cars.
But other than that........

Conrod Kieron · 3 Jul 2006, 11:49 (Ref:1647230)

I thought the Sierras ran 5spd Getrags. The diff homolgated by Johnson/Harrop was a 9" centre with custom housing, which became the diff for the V8's,
The original diff was certainly fragile but the new one caused understeer problems, would have been an interesting car to drive with its narrow torque curve as well!

anthony81901 · 3 Jul 2006, 14:43 (Ref:1647368)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conrod Kieron

I thought the Sierras ran 5spd Getrags. The diff homolgated by Johnson/Harrop was a 9" centre with custom housing, which became the diff for the V8's,
The original diff was certainly fragile but the new one caused understeer problems, would have been an interesting car to drive with its narrow torque curve as well!

6 speeds were allowed from the beginning of 91, when CAMS played with the rules to try and even up the field. The understeer on the Sierras was also caused by it being undertyred, I think it only ran tyres 10" wide.

spunkwinkle · 5 Jul 2006, 07:24 (Ref:1648596)

Comparison

Sierra RS500
1987- ??5 Enduro's: 2wins AGP: 1win
1988- 9 ATCC Rounds: 9wins 5 Enduro's: 3wins AGP: 0wins
1989- 8 ATCC Rounds: 7wins 5 Enduro's: 3wins AGP: 1win
1990- 8 ATCC Rounds: 5wins 5 Enduro's: 2wins AGP: 1win
1991- 9 ATCC Rounds: 0wins 4 Enduro's: 0wins AGP: 0wins
1992- 9 ATCC Rounds: 4wins 4 Enduro's: 0wins TC/AGP: 1win
TOT= 43 ATCC Rounds 25wins at 58%
78 Events 39wins at 50%

VT Commodore
1998- 3 ATCC Rounds: 2wins 2 Enduro's: 1win Indy: 0wins
1999- 13 ATCC Rounds: 11wins Indy/AGP: 1win
2000- 13 ATCC Rounds: 12wins Indy/AGP: 1win
2001- 13 ATCC Rounds: 1win Indy/AGP: 0wins
TOT= 42 ATCC Rounds 26wins at 62%
51 Events 29wins at 57%

BA Falcon XR8
2003- 13 ATCC Rounds: 9wins AGP: 1win
2004- 13 ATCC Rounds: 6wins AGP: 0wins
2005- 13 ATCC Rounds: 7wins AGP: 0wins
2006- 5 ATCC Rounds: 3wins AGP: 0wins
TOT= 44 ATCC Rounds 25wins at 57%
48 Events 26wins at 54%

Notes: *TC=Triple Challenge
*In 2001 both Faulkner and Romano drove the entire year in VT's. Morris drove a VT up untill the Indy Support Races. Since both drivers were Level 1 teams, I included that year.
*When the AGP and Indy held more than one race, I calculated what would be the total points for those events and declared a winner for the weekend.
*A Sierra did win a round of the ATCC in 1987, and competed all year, however it was only an RS.
*During 1987 there were three rounds of the WTCC, 2 won by the Eggenberger RS500's, as Bathurst was one of these, they are included.
*These stats do not take into account AMSCAR and Development Series races.

anthony81901 · 5 Jul 2006, 08:46 (Ref:1648655)

The VT was not Holden's front line weapon in 01 with all the main Holden teams running the VX, which dare I say it probably had a similar win rate. I don't think Faulkner and Romano were ever going to be in contention for race wins in 2001, and Morris was a one time wonder.

So 28 event wins from 37 events @ 76% is a fairer indication.

spunkwinkle · 5 Jul 2006, 09:37 (Ref:1648708)

True, I knew that the VT had been replaced, and that those drivers were not "top class". However, I do not think that Morris was a one-hit wonder. But to consider the records and number of wins that the VT took, we need to take into account 2001.

anthony81901 · 5 Jul 2006, 11:47 (Ref:1648809)

When the VX was Holden's front line car in 01/02 it won 21 of 29 races a 72% win rate, throw in the Morris win this goes up to 76%. I guess the other way of looking at it is that the AU Falcon only won 24% of the races it was entered in from 99 to 02.

It would be a little unfair to water the VXs rate down by including all the races until the end of 04, just because the back marker Rod Nash team was fielding a VX.

And I think 1 win from 91 starts in over 7 seasons fits the bill of one hit wonder.

spunkwinkle · 6 Jul 2006, 07:59 (Ref:1649413)

I was not trying to spark animosity or anything.
The VT was a very successful car. You obviously wanted to here that. But the truth is that the AU was not capable of competing with the VT and the AU only caught up with the VX when they gave it a Holden splitter tray. During the 80's the Sierra was created to use the Group A rules to great effect. It had little competition until the GT-R arrived and could only win against "Godzilla" when CAMS twisted the rules to provide a better show. The BA shares certain parts with the VZ and the previous Commodore's. With that in mind, both the Holden's and Ford's have been "equal." So to win 57% of the races is something to keep in mind.