Week Day Races Planned

[M Greenslade]

Week day races planned and I quote from Autosport, 18th July from Robin Murphy - Octagon events co-ordinator, he said "We would not need as many marshals because there would be no public". Ahh the penny has dropped, after 27 years working on the bank I now realise that I am there for the benefit of the public!!. Also where are they going to run these races that require less marshals - Cadwell Park!!
It is barking - Balders

[Adam43]

Due to work commitments there won't be as many members of the public there! Well, there won't be as many marshals, drivers, or organisers either (etc...).

Can this work?

I have nothing against having a day off work to go racing, but is it possible for people to do this regularly? No, clearly not.

They will clearly get less marshals, but perhaps that is OK, because there will be less cars too. But wait don't you need a marshal on every post round the circuit (and more). Perhaps he's thinking of the marshals who tell you were to park in the public car park (field), apart from the odd beema driver who thinks he can park anywhere most of us understand the concept of a car park.

I think this is a case of not engaging brain first. A nice idea perhaps, but I feel it is unfeasible. I can't wait to get hold of my copy of Autosport and have a good laugh.

[Flagman]

Perhaps it just shows how little the Octagon 'suits' know about motorsport!

[Bodysnatcher]

Originally posted by Flagman
Perhaps it just shows how little the Octagon 'suits' know about motorsport!

"suit" hardly suits Murph
Actually Robin Murphy has a hell of a lot of motorsport experience. He marshalled for at least 15 years and has been one of Brands' commentators for nearly the last 10 years. I worked the bank with him many times - usually at 4a or Druids, a damn fine marshal. He even survived the mud of the Donington GP in 93 - his last year of marshalling, which gave up due to an old back injury aggravated by lifting a Formula Ford at the festival I think.
When commentating he ALWAYS mentions the marshals, some by name if he knows what post you're on.
AFAIK some of his family were racers in the 60s and ?70s, the man has an encyclopaedic knowledge of racing (as any of us at Brands who have to listen to him will attest)

However, this idea of midweek racing without as many marshals sound like a company idea being tested on the media.
Not a very good idea at all.

[scorch]

I think this is a real posibility.
It's not that big a step, most uk circuits have on track activity all week long anyway.

My concern is that to run a race during the week you will probebly use your normal paid circuit staff, and this would erode the use of marshalls in general.

It's not a great stretch of the imagination to hold a weekend race under the same safety cover, then at that point you have profesional marshalling force and volunteer marshalling goes out of the window.

light's the blue touch paper and retires...

[Flagman]

"suit" hardly suits Murph

But if he is acting as a spokesman for the 'suits'...

I've known several marshals who were pretty anti-circuit owners - until they got a job working for the circuit!

!

It's not that big a step, most uk circuits have on track activity all week long anyway.

Would competitors want to RACE under the same levels of cover as at a track day or midweek test session - half a dozen marshals out on circuit with radios and a red flag and where every time someone spins or pulls off the session is stopped.
Could take a very long time to run a race meeting.

Perhaps some 'suit' has worked out that running a track day at the weekend would be more profitable than running a race day - so just move the race days to mid-week.

[Bodysnatcher]

It is'nt too big a leap? (obviously to some people)
The midweek stuff at brands is now handled by 3 or 4 numpties (not MSA licenced marshals) out on track with a couple in the pit lane and a proper rescue unit as back up. Some others on this board have more recent experience of this than me.
Now thats (usually) alright for non competitive stuff like testing and track hire.

Racing is totally different.
Unless of course competitors are happy to have no flag signals other than the occasional red or black 'n' yellow.

No rapid response to biggies. Thinking of Brands last 2 majors here - the exploding Clio that was snuffed out wihtin 5 seconds - and the sports 2000 last weekend where the driver was trapped by his feet. Think both those drivers were pleased to see orange suits.

Less observation of infringements. Hey, you can punt off the other guys and no one will be there to see it. Although you could be the one getting punted off.
Scrutineering?
Timekeeping?
Clerks of Course?
which leads me to...who is going to run these events, all the clubs are dependent on volunteers...
Oh,the penny's just dropped..
Octagon!

So, can't see entry fees being much less.

No, sorry Rob, Octagon has used you to spout a load of carp, diminishing the number of marshals has F.all to with the costs involved in running race meetings. You really aught to have known better.

[Adam43]

Originally posted by Flagman
Perhaps some 'suit' has worked out that running a track day at the weekend would be more profitable than running a race day - so just move the race days to mid-week.

You're scaring me now! Trouble is it could be true.

[Adam43]

Originally posted by Bodysnatcher
diminishing the number of marshals has F.all to with the costs involved in running race meetings.

True. However it makes a hell a (bad) difference to the quality of the event.

Originally posted by scorch
then at that point you have profesional marshalling force and volunteer marshalling goes out of the window.

Replace them with paid marshals - now this would make a difference to the cost of a meeting!

[neilwaynesmith]

Perhaps this ludicrous idea is just the tip of the iceberg regarding Octagons plans for motorsport in general.

Personally I think the MSA should take a long hard look at their activities.

I offer a few observations, please digest and feel free to comment;

1: Octagon was borne from BHL, the home of Nicola 'get off my land' Foulston. Perhaps her mentality and attitude still percolates through the hallowed halls of Octagon Central.

2: Their treatment (?!) of Marshals is already well known and documented. Perhaps this is their idea of a threatening response?

3: Just what is Octagons commitment to their shareholders in relation to their commitment to the sport they are supposed to work for?

4: Surely Octagons ownership of so many circuits could be viewed as a virtual monopoly? I quote from a report presented to Parliament in September 2001:
"Accordingly, we have found that the merger (between Octagon and the BRDC) will not give rise to adverse effects and we conclude that it is not against the public interest.
We do, however have some concerns for the future. These stem partly from the combination of Octagons horizontal strength in the control of licensed circuits and its vertical links in the provision of track days and the promotion of spectator events, We propose that the Directir General of Fair Trading should review the operation of thje relevant markets within five years".

[EvilPumpkin]

If they want to do the whole "professional marshal" thing - let them.

• They'll have to provide adequate breaks. Something they don't do now. There'll be none of this "we're cutting the marshals' lunchbreak" crepe if they start hiring people - they'll get sued. And they'll have to provide adequate breaks in the morning and afternoon.
• They'll have to provide adequate training - and will be fully responsible if their employees are unable to fulfil their duties - leaving them open to lawsuits from drivers for any perceived error - from an incorrect blue flag to any damage caused during car retrieval
• They'll have to submit to regular health and safety inspections and keep the marshals posts, banks etc. to an adequate standard for employees - AND supply those employees with the appropriate safety attire - from boots and gloves to overalls, goggles, etc.
• The second anyone falls off a bank, gets hit by a stone, bangs their elbow or stubs their toe, they're going to get hit for compensation.
• They'll have to provide proper facilities for travel/accommodation as well - unless they have a specific contract that says otherwise. I doubt very much if they'll find enough people in the catchment area of the circuit to provide all the services they'll require.

If Octagon want to do that - fine. After they've gone bankrupt, maybe someone else will take over that has a slightly better attitude.

This isn't any slight on those marshals that already do work for circuits during the week by the way. Just an observation about what they can expect if they continue on this way and hire people in for weekends etc. The people I know who do this stuff currently are marshals who've got jobs doing something they love. I doubt that this will continue to be the case if they get rid of the volunteer force.

[pinki]

Originally posted by Bodysnatcher
The midweek stuff at brands is now handled by 3 or 4 numpties (not MSA licenced marshals) out on track with a couple in the pit lane and a proper rescue unit as back up. Some others on this board have more recent experience of this than me.
Now thats (usually) alright for non competitive stuff like testing and track hire.

I hear what you are saying Al, but I do take exception at being called a 'numpty' and I think you will find that 'Big Hairy Willy' would too, not all of us are non-licenced !!!

Nuff Sed

[rick vaux]

Oh no......what will i do with my weekends if the racing is midweek....will have to spend more time with Mrs Rick...

[flagwaver]

The blue book states that the MSA will provide insurance cover for rescue units(crews) to, at & from an MSA sanctioned event. So under whos insurance are they doing mid weeks on because it isn't the MSA.
Also who's licence to operate are they using again it is not the MSA.
If you are getting paid to do a job then the whole duty of care changes.
This is one of the reasons some clubs do not give marshals money because it could be construde as payment.
As has already been said This opens a very large can of worms.

[scorch]

In my experence most of the people who work at circuits for safety cover are either, ex/current msa graded marshalls or local off duty fire officers.

And you may not know but it has already started, not racing in the week but professionals working alonside marshalls at a meeting, and Im not talking abut a small meeting im talking about the GP. Now i know they wern't doing a 'normal' marshalling post, but they were still trackside. Hey that means there were people trackside at the GP with no MSA grade and no motorsport experence. wow scary!!

Incidently speaking to these 2 guys they were appaled at he treatment and said that there is no chance of doing it again.
Now what does that say about Marshalls.

[flagwaver]

scorch you seem to be missing my point i am not saying that these peaple are incapable just that the duty of care that they have is different.
If you are a paid marshal you can not hide behind the MSA insurance.
So the question is who idemifies these peaple A fire officer off duty is not covered by the fire brigade for what actions he takes. As he is getting paid he would not be able to claim "good samaritan" The same would apply to any professional.
this is one of the problems in getting hospital staff to work at race meetings as they ned to take out a seperate idemnity and the cost of the idemity varies if they are getting paid or not.

[EvilPumpkin]

Originally posted by rick vaux
Oh no......what will i do with my weekends if the racing is midweek....will have to spend more time with Mrs Rick...

Don't worry Rick - I'm sure Mrs. Rick is already getting up a marshals' wives petition to Octagon threatening to storm the citadel if they cause you guys to all be hanging round the house cluttering up the place every weekend and standing around Scalectrix games waving flags...!

Scorch, I don't think anyone has an issue with anyone marshalling - regardless of profession.

My major concern is that if it is a paid job - and let's be honest, it's unlikely to be a highly paid job, particularly with "anti social" hours like weekends, the type of person that is likely to be attracted to it will fall into 3 categories:

1. People who want to get into motor racing
2. People who think it's glamorous
3. Jobsworths who will not take it seriously and treat the job like a game because they are not getting great wages.

It's items 2 and 3 that bother me. Item 2s - People who think it's glamorous - are more than likely going to be Tiggers of the first order. They've seen one too many episodes of ER/Casualty/London's Burning (pick your emergency program of choice) and visualise themselves dragging drivers out of burning cars, intubating people and shouting "stat" a lot.

At for the jobsworths.....nothing will be their fault because they're only on a fiver an hour.

The thing that I've always felt about marshalling being voluntary and unpaid is that as a result everyone takes a great deal of pride in being professional.

Oh and guys - try to remember that the MSA is not the centre of the marshalling universe - there's a LOT of marshals who don't come under the auspices of the MSA - just about everywhere outside the UK for a start! From conversations I've had and threads appearing here, there also appear to be quite a lot of marshals who do come under the auspices of the MSA that can't get a grade due to lack of examiners. Lack of MSA grading doesn't automatically mean incompetent/incapable.

[Bodysnatcher]

Sorry Pinki, you and big Willy are not numpties of course.
Fine gentlemens both of yous.
Just relaying what someone else was saying to me about the quality during the week.
Anyway having read the bit in Autospurt, it looks more like Murph may have been misquoted. (surprise, surprise)

[AndyF]

It's a silly idea to race midweek. Less drivers, less marshals and because less marshals - no spectators. Personally, i wouldn't mind going to watch a race during the week. Perhaps it could be tested to see if it works once or twice.

However, if they did race mid-week, I can't see the point in not allowing spectators in - the ammount of interest lost in the series would be too large!

[pinki]

Okay, lets get the misconceptions out of the way and explain what happens at a midweek test or track day though this is for Brands only.

Prime example, yesterday we had a GP circuit track hire for bikes. We ran with two guys in the pitlane and spread around the circuit on virtually every other post was one marshal. It is a requirement for us to be MSA registered and over half of the people there yesterday were regular marhals be it bikes or cars.

Also present are two doctors in protons, two ambulances, a bike recovery unit and the medical centre staff.

For me it's a day out in the sun (and sometimes the rain) when I'm not working my wierd shift system and it gives me a little pocket money to boot.

On the subject of insurance, we are covered by Octagon as we are on the books as an employee.

So onto the title of this thread, 'Week Day Races Planned', well I haven't heard anything about it and to be honest I can't see it happening, I think Al is right when he says Robin has been misquoted.

Finally, don't worry Al, no offence was taken

[Flagman]

Less drivers, less marshals and because less marshals - no spectators

No spectators, no sponsor coverage, harder to get sponsers, less drivers.

Lets face it, Octagon probably do not really want club racing as it gets in the way of track days or big promoted/profitable meetings such as F1/BTCC.

Perhaps when the supply of drivers from club racing dries up and there are no new drivers coming through to BTCC supports the penny might drop.

[theracegypsy]

Boy this is a can of worms, I don't really know where to start.

First, sorry EP but I agree with Pinki, since I retired from professional life (and no I'm not that old....)I have been regularly working track & school days for 3 circuits. The pay is minimal, $50-55(sorry that should be pounds, -I'm in USA at present)per day, with lunch provided. yes we are all MSA licenced on the bank, with either MSA rescue unit or local health authority emergency ambulance at pit lane. yes there are not licenced people employed, usually track staff, and they work pit lane or track repair, - or car repair! Insurance is provided by the track owners or operators, as the employer. ( I am not talking Octagon here)

A comment of Bodysnatcher, Scorch ( do I know you) & Andy re economics of racing, do you realise most club racing in USA has to ban spectators, only signed on helpers of driver allowed. This is due to their insurance requirements where it is possible to get accidents involving spectator areas. Simmilarly they have to limit the number of marshals for the same reason! eg Wahington ALMS they were only allowed to have 75 marshals.