[Team] Scuderia Toro Rosso: Now with HONDA

[wnut]

Originally Posted by peebee2

No. Totally different in that in your example d2 would be penalised for overtaking as has happened before. TGF etc.

That isn’t what happened on Sunday.

MCWB's scenario covers exactly what happened here:

From the steward's reports:

Perez’s Stewards Decision
Decision 10 Second Stop and Go penalty imposed after the race in accordance with Article 38.3 (30 seconds added to elapsed race time)
Reason The Stewards reviewed video evidence and heard from Sergio Perez, the driver of car 11 and the team representative. Car 11 overtook car 28 before turn 1 and then during the remainder of the formation lap made no noticeable effort to allow car 28 to regain his position. The driver of car 11 also admitted the driver of car 28 was not unduly delayed when leaving the grid to start the formation lap. In this case the Stewards decided to not award penalty points as the penalty is the sufficient.
Hartley’s Stewards Decision.
Decision 10 Second Stop and Go penalty imposed after the race in accordance with Article 38.3 (30 seconds added to elapsed race time). (2 penalty points awarded, 4 points total for the 12 month period) Reason The Stewards reviewed video evidence and heard from Brendon Hartley, the driver of car 28 and the team representative. Car 28 was overtaken by car 11 during the formation lap, failed to re-establish his position before the first safety car line and then did not enter the pits as required under Article 38.3.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by gert

I see a lot of comments that Perez was being difficult, but was he really?

Well, that is the interpretation of what the stewards said when they sat in judgement. They said: 'He (Perez) made no noticeable effort to let Hartley pass'.

When a car in front of you is weaving from one side of the track to the other to warm up the tyres, it would be foolhardy of a following driver to try to pass. It actually requires the driver in front to remain in a straight line and indicate in one way or another, such as a hand gesture or significantly slowing down, so that the following driver knows that it is safe to pass.

Alternatively, as I have said, and you acknowledge in your post, you just carry on until you reach the grid and then take your proper place which is what happened on Sunday.

[peebee2]

Ok, understood and thanks. Though Hartley given a bigger penalty than Perez suggests more blame to him.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by MCWB

That seems like a crazy rule! Here's a completely ridiculous hypothetical scenario...

Last race of the season, Driver 1 needs to win the race to win the championship. Driver 1 is on pole, with championship rival Driver 2 in second.

Formation lap start: Driver 2 takes off like a scalded cat overtakes Driver 1 and leaves Driver 1 no opportunity to overtake. Driver 2 takes up P2 on the grid, followed by Driver 1 and the rest of the field.

If I understand this rule correctly, Driver 1 has to start from pit lane or gets a 10 second stop/go or 30 second time penalty, effectively taking them out of the championship?

by virtue of securing pole, surely D1/P1 has earned the right to control the field (within reason) for the formation lap so i would have an issue with D2 doing as you say.

but hey, lets immediately give them both penalties/start in the pit lane and have them have to fight their way through the field in order to decide the title.

i would actually love to see this scenario play out!

[RWill2073]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Ok, understood and thanks. Though Hartley given a bigger penalty than Perez suggests more blame to him.

Which really doesn't make sense, unless they want some dangerous moves potentially happening on the formation lap.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by gert

I see a lot of comments that Perez was being difficult, but was he really?

If the "Hartley didn't know the rules" part is true, did he even attempt to take his position back? Or was he just happy to follow Perez knowing that it would make no difference to taking his exact spot on the grid as Perez would take the other lane anyhow - as in: there would be no car in the way, and he himself would be in nobody's way either.

In which case you have to wonder what the problem was.... Much ado about nothing it seems to me, apart from breaking a rule which in this instance would have had no effect upon the race. I stand by my original appraisal of the situation.....

[E.B]

I just watched a replay of the warm up lap before I deleted it from my recorder and am now of the opinion the problem was all of Hartley's own making. As the cars departed Marshalls were waving a yellow flag towards the rear of the grid, presumably for the slow to depart Hartley. Perez did not take off like a scalded cat. He merely left the car of Hartley behind no doubt on seeing the yellow flag waving.

As the cars progressed around the lap, Hartley never once was even remotely close enough to try and pass Perez.... he literally did his warm up procedure some 50 metres behind Perez. In fact as the cars returned to the grid, it looked like one of the McLarens had to near enough stop to avoid passing Hartley who had nearly stopped and was no doubt seeing if Perez was going to his rightful spot.

I am no fan of Perez, but I dont see what he did wrong other than not stopping to allow Hartley to catch up and repass him. All down to Hartley Im afraid.

[midgetman]

Blimey, so much debate about the warm up lap. Was the race *that* boring?

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

[wnut]

Originally Posted by RWill2073

Which really doesn't make sense, unless they want some dangerous moves potentially happening on the formation lap.

Seems to be the only logical conclusion.

No common sense with the application of the rules whatsoever!

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by RWill2073

The odd thing is, you could argue the Honda has been more reliable than the Renault in red bulls hands this year.

No need to argue that, it is a thing which is clearly true.

[Razzzor]

How do you go from 4th at Bahrain, to 18th and 20th at China?

I don't know what Hartley was doing but he dropped to 2nd last in the first 10 laps after starting 15th, even Gasly he had to let past despite being on new ultrasofts. Car damage or something? His poor pace didn't make sense. He made a pitstop on lap 11 and made up some time to come out ahead of the Saubers and Gasly, but was he going 40+ laps on one set of mediums? Gasly eventually caught him on newer tyres and then did that silly move into the hairpin. I don't know how the commentators can even discuss that not being 100% Gasly's fault, and Gasly's screaming on the radio about Hartley turning in on him? C'mon man show some class he's your team mate.

So with the SC Gasly got new tyres on during a 10sec penalty, but went nowhere with them anyway. Hartley had to come into the pits, maybe had a puncture after the contact and went a lap down and of course the lapped cars always get released so late that they can't re-catch the field so that was Hartley's race over - same thing happened in race 1. Gasly must have been passed by a second stopping Grosjean and somehow Ericsson as well in the last few laps. Hartley was keeping up with Leclerc (who was also unlapping himself) but couldn't pass him. Both were about the pace of the Saubers. In other words slow. I assume Hartley retiring with 3 to go was to save the engine. I hope they can find that Bahrain pace again.

[S griffin]

Different circuits suit different cars. That’s probably the only explanation atm

[EffectiveSprinkles]

I think Bahrain was more that other teams were struggling than Toro Rosso suddenly being fast. They did execute that race perfectly, but on pace terms I think they're still the last team of the midpack.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

I think Bahrain was more that other teams were struggling than Toro Rosso suddenly being fast. They did execute that race perfectly, but on pace terms I think they're still the last team of the midpack.

I could be wrong, but I believe they had real pace (at least Gasty) at Bahrain. He wasn't holding anyone up. So I wouldn't put them at the back of the mid-pack (at least for that race)

As to what was going on at China. I wonder if there were setup issues. I read the following article after qualifying and actually wondered if TR might consider reverting to prior setup and then starting from pitlane...

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/g...rtley-1026092/

A number of interesting quotes from Gasly in that article. It sounds like the car might have been downright evil when being pushed. That some type of change they made between practice and qualifying was very much in the wrong direction.

There is also the issue that I am sure they will have some tracks that work well for them and others that don't.

Richard

[Skam85]

I think we're going to find the order of the really close midfield group shuffled on almost a race-to-race basis. Aus it was Haas, Bahrain it was TR, China Renault. Makes it excellent viewing, as any of these guys could nab a great result if the front runners fall over (like Gasly in Bahrain).

[OZ_HCR32]

Furstly. I like Hartley. I was stoked when he got the call up.

But at best he has been ordinary. The lack of other Red Bull drivers mau save him but can easily see him getting dropped at this rate.

Is it tyres he its struggling with....D1 as a whole?

[peebee2]

There was a lot of surprise when they gave him a go. He has clearly grown up a lot since the first time they dropped him, but he doesn’t appear to be good enough by quite some way.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by OZ_HCR32

Furstly. I like Hartley. I was stoked when he got the call up.

But at best he has been ordinary. The lack of other Red Bull drivers mau save him but can easily see him getting dropped at this rate.

Is it tyres he its struggling with....D1 as a whole?

I feel the same. Glad he is here. Wanted him to do well. He is not getting it done. Unless something changes soon, I expect this will be his last season in F1.

Richard

[Alan52]

I was hoping Hartley would cope but it wasn't to be.Sky said he will be replaced by Werhlein for Canada.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by Alan52

I was hoping Hartley would cope but it wasn't to be.Sky said he will be replaced by Werhlein for Canada.

Is there any more sources for this?

[Armco Bender]

Be surprised if they did change drivers as I think Lewis Hamilton would struggle to make this car go any faster.
Hartley is very experenced at development,I would say this was the main reason they wanted him for this season.
He is also very quick in a fast car,its just he doesnt have one at the moment.

[S griffin]

And just remember Gasly is a great talent for the future

[Akrapovic]

We used to complain that Red Bull would drop development drivers too early, only giving them a season or two. Now Hartley has done 8 races in his entire F1 career and we're discussing he's not good enough...really?

[peebee2]

His situation unlike any other. Was amazed they ever put him in, but they found themselves short after dropping Kvyat. Coping with all the demands of the car while driving fast seem to be beyond Hartley, hence his mistake in Baku and dropping a wheel on the grass yesterday.

[Skam85]

Kvyat really wasn't that bad either. But his position in the RB stable was untenable.

It would be an unsurprising shame to see Hartley dropped, but overall Wehrlein is a better overall driver.