[WEC] Toyota LMP1 Discussion

[JoestForEver]

I believe if they opt for larger power then the time of power releasing will be shorter? Larger power of ERS also means more tire wear. So I doubt any of the three manufacturers will choose to maximize power, instead, a balance of power output, ERS releasing time and tire wear.
A total output of 900 might be possible I believe, with minor variances of all three.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

It is reasonable to expect that the combined ERS-K + ERS-H to be used by Audi and Porsche will also be able to recover energy in excess of 8MJ per lap at LM and that they are likely to use an MGU at the front with a power of the order of 225 kW (300 HP), equating to less than 36sec of hybrid boost.

If Toyota do opt for an energy release via the two MGUs at the front and at the back, the TS040 is going to be massively quicker than the competition exiting corners. That will be interesting to watch and I wonder how the drivers (and tires) will cope with double the power output when the ERS kicks in.

Assuming however that Toyota opt for a more "conservative" energy release strategy using only one MGU (e.g. at the front), I would expect that we will not see major differences between the trio of manufacturers as far as ERS usage is concerned.

In any event, engine/fuel efficiency is going to play a major role and it remains to be seen if Toyota are confident that they can achieve the expected efficiency targets. Not so long ago, we heard them complaining about this issue.

We heard them complaining of the difference in targets. The ACO's target efficiency for diesel is 'easily achieved' compared to that of petrol. Thats the voice of Kinosh ta's concern. But we also read that they achieved 40% efficiency with the TS030. Im sure they're over the COMPLAINTS now.

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by TF110

Fortunately for Toyota theyve had near 7 or 8 years to develop the supercapacitor. They were making 300hp on their full releases of around 2.2/2.3 seconds. So double that- 7MJ, they could do 300hp for a full release of 4.5 seconds going by the current formula of 7 'release zones'. 7 x 4.5 = 31.5 seconds of 300hp per lap. Thats conservative... if they go 8MJ option they can go almost 36-37 seconds per lap on the 300hp boost. You can see why theyre quietly confident.

Comparative F1 vs LMP1
One question for TF110 or another guy with all lot of knowledge.
The LMP1 will have 36 or 37 seconds per lap on the 300 hp boost in Le mans (13.6 Km). That could be 150 hp for 72 or 74 seconds.
The F1 will have 30 seconds per lap on 160 hp boost in circuit around 6 or 7 Km. Could this be the same time/power relationship like LMP1?

[TF110]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

Comparative F1 vs LMP1
One question for TF110 or another guy with all lot of knowledge.
The LMP1 will have 36 or 37 seconds per lap on the 300 hp boost in Le mans (13.6 Km). That could be 150 hp for 72 or 74 seconds.
The F1 will have 30 seconds per lap on 160 hp boost in circuit around 6 or 7 Km. Could this be the same time/power relationship like LMP1?

I think theyre limited to a set amount of power per lap in both series'. I think the equation is around 2/3 the power for a 6-7km track in lmp1. So LeMans 8mj per lap = 5-7mj per lap on tracks like Silverstone or Spa.

[JoestForEver]

Previously, ACO set brake zones. In Le Mans case, it's seven, so 500kJ*7=3.5MJ, but in most sprint races there are 4 zones, so the total energy is 2MJ instead of 3.5, similar power but surely less boost time. In the F1 scenario, it's 400kJ a lap before 2014, so less than what LMP can harvest in a corner.
Forgot about the new regs though, but I'm sure 8MJ energy and boost time is still restricted to Le Sarthe.

[hondafan37]

thanks for your answer

[gwyllion]

I moved the lengthy posts about different energy storage systems to the technical regulations discussion thread.

[TF110]

Teaser shot of the TS040, and a part very key to lmp1-



The fuel flow meter.

[The Badger]

OOhhh ..... the paint job looks like its kinda got thin white lines running in it ..... possibily a bit on the arty side .

[TheNo1F1Fan]

Looks like that the livery's gonna be the same as from previous year (my opinion).

[NelisB]

I think they just put it on last years car to take a nice picture. No way that they've got all there test cars stickered up.

[carbon_titanium]

Originally Posted by NelisB

I think they just put it on last years car to take a nice picture. No way that they've got all there test cars stickered up.

I have to agree with you.

[Richard117]

I think those little white lines are reflections of lights at the roof of that workshop/pitbox

[chernaudi]

Photo looks like the right front fender of a TS030 with the ACO fuel flow restrictor device on it to show what the device is supposed to look like.

Only thing that could cause me to rule out it being a TS030 (which is probably is) is the lack of a mirror on the pontoon fender section.

[Bandicoot17]

The mirror is a bit further back than that.

[TF110]

It may be the TS040, thered be no reason to hide the car if it was last year's. They confirmed the livery would be similar to last year's. Sebastian Buemi tweeted that he would be testing in a few days.

[MyNameIsNigel]

I am sure that Toyota can do better than tease us with a shot of what is basically a standard part sitting on a TS030 front fender (so it seems...). Show us an actual shot of the new car. Even a lowres picture will suffice.

[TF110]

I suggest you go back to page 7. They must have a solution they are secretive about. Obviously so if they have shown one photo from the front, in the dark.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by TF110

I suggest you go back to page 7. They must have a solution they are secretive about. Obviously so if they have shown one photo from the front, in the dark.

Or they simply have "nothing" dramatic to show ? Honestly, it's a bit of wishful thinking to assume that Toyota necessarily have a "secret weapon" to hide because of the limited number of TS040 shots available at this hour. Porsche and Audi have already finalized their respective concepts (which we have not seen in their final form) and they are unlikely to change avenues at such a late development stage.

As far as Toyota are concerned, I have learned to keep my level of expectation low.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

Or they simply have "nothing" dramatic to show ? Honestly, it's a bit of wishful thinking to assume that Toyota necessarily have a "secret weapon" to hide because of the limited number of TS040 shots available at this hour. Porsche and Audi have already finalized their respective concepts (which we have not seen in their final form) and they are unlikely to change avenues at such a late development stage.

As far as Toyota are concerned, I have learned to keep my level of expectation low.

Right. Like the endplate wing extensions? Or like the teeth shaped front diveplanes? Those aren't items youd like to keep secret? I think youre being a bit pessimistic, tbh. I said a solution they dont want other teams to see, not a "secret weapon". You see about Porsche running camo on their car to hide its lines. The good thing about Toyota is they aren't extravagant or braggarts. Testing things in secret is something more than just they do. Matter of fact, they even mentioned the reasons on their european blog for the secretism- http://blog.toyota.eu/2014/01/30/int...-ts040-hybrid/

Road-relevant it may be, but don’t expect to see much of the TS040 HYBRID in the next few weeks. With all LMP1 manufacturers pushing to the limit to find additional performance, TOYOTA Racing is taking no chances and will be keeping the TS040 HYBRID under wraps until the official WEC test at the end of March.

Please be patient, we all hope the wait will be worthwhile!

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by TF110

Right. Like the endplate wing extensions? Or like the teeth shaped front diveplanes? Those aren't items youd like to keep secret? I think youre being a bit pessimistic, tbh. I said a solution they dont want other teams to see, not a "secret weapon". You see about Porsche running camo on their car to hide its lines. The good thing about Toyota is they aren't extravagant or braggarts. Testing things in secret is something more than just they do. Matter of fact, they even mentioned the reasons on their european blog for the secretism- http://blog.toyota.eu/2014/01/30/int...-ts040-hybrid/

I am not pessimistic, just realistic.

Besides, with the emphasis in 2014 shifting more towards the development of an efficient engine + ERS package, I sincerely doubt that being secretive about the exterior design of the TS040 will have much impact. Do you honestly believe that Porsche and Audi are waiting to see Toyota's design to immediately try to copy it ? It's too late for that.

Furthermore, Porsche and Audi have been "showcasing" their initial interpretations of the new rules, but we have yet to have a full picture and understanding of what sits underneath the skin. You can be "secretive" even by showing a few things to the public. In any event, both Porsche and Audi have yet to show their final iterations of the new LMP1 contenders.

IMHO, Toyota have absolutely nothing to gain by being overly secretive, especially at such a late stage of the development.

[carbon_titanium]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

I am not pessimistic, just realistic.

Besides, with the emphasis in 2014 shifting more towards the development of an efficient engine + ERS package, I sincerely doubt that being secretive about the exterior design of the TS040 will have much impact. Do you honestly believe that Porsche and Audi are waiting to see Toyota's design to immediately try to copy it ? It's too late for that.

Furthermore, Porsche and Audi have been "showcasing" their initial interpretations of the new rules, but we have yet to have a full picture and understanding of what sits underneath the skin. You can be "secretive" even by showing a few things to the public. In any event, both Porsche and Audi have yet to show their final iterations of the new LMP1 contenders.

IMHO, Toyota have absolutely nothing to gain by being overly secretive, especially at such a late stage of the development.

I have to agree with this, Audi and Porsche started to develope and test their new cars months ago. It would not be however much usefull and smart to stop now and start a new development for parts "copied" from toyota. IMHO toyota doesn't show anything, because the car is still in early development stage

[hcl123]

I also agree... and more since i suspect the TS040 will resemble the TS030 much more than the 2014 R18 resembled the 2013 R18.

I suspect most of changes will be under the skin... the fact of 2 kinetic ERSs and then the engine that must be quite revised to cope with less fuel. Because for a "throttled" engine less fuel has more significant impact than for a "throttle-less" that can play well with lean mixtures.

And this aspect of engine most probably we wouldn't be able to tell any differences even if Toyota showed under the skin.

[hcl123]

Toyota never even dare to try a diesel in it's passenger cars

That i have to disagree, iirc Toyota was the first constructor to reach 170hp with a 2L class turbodiesel commom rail... years ago!... (passenger cars)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Avensis

No!.. they have expertize alright... the problem is politics... the problem is always politics...

(at least in europe they also sell other very good small passenger cars on diesel (yaris i think)... don't know all the lines of toyota... but think diesel options is present in most of them)

[tyronnezx]

Originally Posted by hcl123

That i have to disagree, iirc Toyota was the first constructor to reach 170hp with a 2L class turbodiesel commom rail... years ago!... (passenger cars)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Avensis

No!.. they have expertize alright... the problem is politics... the problem is always politics...

(at least in europe they also sell other very good small passenger cars on diesel (yaris i think)... don't know all the lines of toyota... but think diesel options is present in most of them)

Isn't Toyota Diesels Equipped with BMW engines?