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Old 29 Jul 2017, 22:59 (Ref:3755724)   #76
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Originally Posted by Akrapovic View Post
Yeah for sure, it isn't as pure as some claim. But there will also be people who claim all race car tech makes its way to road cars, and all that silliness. As always, it is more complex than that.

Balancing technology theory and then allowing open development of those avenues is not the same as BoP. I'm not saying EoT and BoP is bad, and I'm not arguing purity and spirit, etc. But they aren't the same thing.
DPI is (for now) allowing some development though it's a BOP class. But you do have to ask the question of why have open development if it's all just going to be performance balanced to at least some degree?

Which that does lead me to a question. Will the ACO speed up LMP1 privateer cars next season and/or try and slow down Toyota to at least try and make the sprint races more interesting?

And off topic, but what's the icon that looks like an upside down camel supposed to be?
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Old 30 Jul 2017, 00:50 (Ref:3755741)   #77
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Yeah, Mr. Goodwin's post was fairly impressive, eh?

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I don't think we'll see Audi Sport--or probably anyone, for that matter--prior to 2020.
I think VAG has too much to spend in fines and bribes and general clean-up over the next few years to be considering a return to F1-level spending ... and regardless of what they say, i am not convinced that a lot of passenger-car tech came out of all that. I think that might be the line delivered by the racers to the higher-up to try to keep the money flowing to other racing projects.

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And I don't think we should lose sight of the last couple of sentences in Graham's post. LMP1 might have been able to survive (at least better) if the class was more open and accessible. I don't think that Audi Sport and Porsche pulling out would be as big a deal if we had 4-5 other manufacturers rather than just one outside of VAG owned operations.
Ya think?
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I think that the "go big or go home" mentality that the ACO tried to appeal to was at fault there, just as an observer's opinion.
Yup. "My way of the highway" works great until you realize the guy heading down the highway has the only ball and now you cannot play the game any more. Sheer stupidity ... or for FIA business as usual.

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The ball is in the ACO's court. Will they learn from this, of continue down a path that doesn't, at least outside looking in, make much sense?
Scary isn't it?
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Old 30 Jul 2017, 01:06 (Ref:3755750)   #78
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And given their public statements, I doubt that the ACO will learn. Factory teams will only come in if they know that all ERS classes are equal, that you don't need a hybrid to do well, and you don't need the VAG or even TMG sized budgets. Even TMG are spending massive amounts of money compared to a privateer team.

IMO, it also doesn't look good when you had a $200 million dollar program almost lose out at LM to a LMP2 pro-am program whose budget was a very small fraction of that.

I think that the days of big budgets are over, and the days of one or two OEMs supporting the top class are probably over. Le Mans and the WEC should do what LM and the WSC and ALMS/LMS did best, which is be a good alternative for those who don't want to go into F1 or spend almost F1 levels of money.

I know that I keep harping on it, but the ALMS had prior to the LMP2 factory team explosion the best balance between factory teams, factory supported privateers and fully private teams.

Sadly, the model that the ACO have right now isn't conductive to such ideas. When you don't wanna play in LMP1 anymore, hire a pay driver or a "sneaky silver" and go LMP2 racing. Is that really what we want to see?
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Old 30 Jul 2017, 01:14 (Ref:3755752)   #79
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And ironically, it seems that the cost of dieselgate hasn't totally stymied the Audi Sport/Porsche to F1 rumors (they're still out there due to the 2021 engine rules meeting that also involved, among others, Aston Martin, which isn't exactly swimming in cheap cash).

I do again have to ask why spend $150-200 million on LM and the WEC to only have one race guarantee exposure when you can spend that much to sell engines to F1 teams and get more exposure.

Dieselgate may've given VAG an image crisis on diesel, but they're not alone now, and I'd bet that maybe similar scandals will come up for hybrid cars, gasoline cars, and even EVs. I'd bet that everyone's got some skeletons in their closet (and someone at either Midweek Motorsports or Mulsanne's Corner FB page said that he works for a company that does emissions testing. He says that everyone's cheating to one degree or another, irrespective of fuel or hybrid or not).

Granted, Audi Sport running a gasoline engine would've made their program redundant and it probably would've gotten the axe anyways due to Porsche's program being newer and if anything more expensive. But everyone was already going to battery packs instead of Porsche being the only one to do so at first.

But for anyone to come in after 2019, the rules will have to make sense, LMP1 will have promise some stability, and the ACO can't just get one team in to support the series. Audi Sport already did that back in LMP900 and the first year or two of LMP1. Even without dieselgate, I don't think they'd want to do it again. I don't think Porsche would want to, Toyota probably doesn't want to.

And what Bart Hayden from Rebellion said about Rebellion going back into LMP1 rings true for factory teams now. They don't want to look stupid for pulling the trigger and no one else coming in.
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Old 30 Jul 2017, 06:38 (Ref:3755828)   #80
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And ironically, it seems that the cost of dieselgate hasn't totally stymied the Audi Sport/Porsche to F1 rumors (they're still out there due to the 2021 engine rules meeting that also involved, among others, Aston Martin, which isn't exactly swimming in cheap cash).

I do again have to ask why spend $150-200 million on LM and the WEC to only have one race guarantee exposure when you can spend that much to sell engines to F1 teams and get more exposure.
You have the key to this in there - it's the difference between a motorsport programme being a profit centre (as an F1 engine supply deal or two could be) or a cost centre. There is huge pressure on every VAG company to apply that measure to every programme.
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Old 30 Jul 2017, 12:17 (Ref:3755919)   #81
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You have the key to this in there - it's the difference between a motorsport programme being a profit centre (as an F1 engine supply deal or two could be) or a cost centre. There is huge pressure on every VAG company to apply that measure to every programme.
Which shows an unfortunate truth. Sportscar racing as we know it is a niche sport in the larger world of things. It is tiny compared to NASCAR and Formula 1. Real sad. I'm not sure why sportscar racing is not as "mainstream" as it should be with the machinery that it has to offer. Porsche 919, Porsche 911 RSR, Corvette C7R, Ford GT, Mercedes AMG. All incredible machines to watch!

Why it does not appeal to even mainstream racing fans I don't know. I find sportscar racing much more fun to watch than the 2 series I mentioned above. Also I tried watching the New York FE race and it was just weird. The only thing cool about it was that the driver line up had mostly guys who have driven sportscars.

With all of the big Fast and Furious movies that came out it could be a natural fit for sportscar racing cars to get involved in it. Maybe we could see Vin Diesel drive a Corvette C7R or a Ford GT. IMSA would be in the best position to take advantage of that. They should contact those directors.

With all of the manufacturer involvement over the years, MARKETING has still been the single biggest failure of sportscar racing as a whole in the past 3 decades.
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Old 30 Jul 2017, 13:08 (Ref:3755970)   #82
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With all of the big Fast and Furious movies that came out it could be a natural fit for sportscar racing cars to get involved in it. Maybe we could see Vin Diesel drive a Corvette C7R or a Ford GT. IMSA would be in the best position to take advantage of that. They should contact those directors.
Random explosions all around the track is what we need right now
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Old 30 Jul 2017, 15:19 (Ref:3756045)   #83
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You have the key to this in there - it's the difference between a motorsport programme being a profit centre (as an F1 engine supply deal or two could be) or a cost centre. There is huge pressure on every VAG company to apply that measure to every programme.
With the current F1 engine regs I don't see how supplying engines alone can be profitable? The rough price of the engines is known and the numbers do not add up. The new regs in 2021 might change this. However, there's a lot of prize money to be given. By winning the championships Mercedes has basically recovered half of their budgets.

Last edited by deggis; 30 Jul 2017 at 15:31.
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Old 30 Jul 2017, 15:28 (Ref:3756053)   #84
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Which shows an unfortunate truth. Sportscar racing as we know it is a niche sport in the larger world of things. It is tiny compared to NASCAR and Formula 1. Real sad. I'm not sure why sportscar racing is not as "mainstream" as it should be with the machinery that it has to offer. Porsche 919, Porsche 911 RSR, Corvette C7R, Ford GT, Mercedes AMG. All incredible machines to watch!
Nascar, Formula 1 and MotoGP have all one thing in common: they are all drivers' championships (at least in F1 you need to best car too, but the point is the same).

It doesn't matter if the cars are cool when what the mainstream audience wants are the drivers.
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Old 30 Jul 2017, 15:33 (Ref:3756054)   #85
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And again we can blame the ACO for that to a large degree. Like IMSA late in the ALMS days, the ACO relied too much on OEMs for things other than entries. OEMs, namely Audi Sport, pumped millions of dollars into advertising and promotion. Now that money is gone.

Fact is that money isn't floating around like it once was, and it's not just dieselgate. Purse strings were tightening for others way before this. A lot of them balked at spending well into the mid and upper 8 figures for a program where success was far from guaranteed, ROI was shaky, and exposure revolved around one race a season.

IMO, the biggest problem with the regs and the technology involved is no scope for customer cars. Even when Audi only supported privateers on a semi-factory basis with the R8 program back in 2003-05, they were still able to maintain a factory presence and their promotion structure, but were spending quite a bit less on the actual program (though most of that funding was diverted to what would be come the R10 program).

If the cars were less expensive and less technology dependent on performance, Audi Sport or Porsche could sell their cars and still be involved for way reduced outlay. IMO, it's almost bizarre to say that the Audi R10 is almost primitive compared to the current LMP1s. Or any of the pre-2014 R18s or the TS030 are almost insanely simple compared to the current cars.

But I do think that in reality, LMP might be a dying breed without privateers. Car makers are flocking to Formula E because it's seen as "green" and it's cheap. And there's also no slowing down in GT racing, because of stable rules and being able to actually do the "race on Sunday, sell on Monday" deal. Not to mention that GT racing is dominated by customer racing outside of GTE/GTLM.

LMP1 priced itself out of the market place, and when the guys who were there decided to cut the cord, the class was in trouble, though that storm was brewing for quite a while before hand.

And I know that some of you will rip on me for talking about LMP900, but at least Audi Sport back then sold customer cars (including to Champion who quickly became an even bigger thorn in Joest's side than Panoz was), and Panoz even sold some customer cars (though none raced in the ALMS, only LM and in Europe).

I don't know how much longer TMG will bother with the class when they can go to FE to learn more about battery tech for hybrids and EVs for less outlay.

Even with dieselgate, I'd think that Audi Sport and/or Porsche might still be around if they were able (or willing) to spend significantly less. And that's also a term and condition that Peugeot made known to the ACO for their return.

Now, the future depends on what the ACO decide. Do they press on ahead with their proposed 2020 plans, which have received a lukewarm reception it seems? Or do they cave at least to some of Peugeot's alleged demands as highlighted in RCE magazine, such as a 4MJ hybrid cap?

Also, to be honest, I do think that maybe hybrid tech should've been a field for Garage 56 or maybe even GT racing. As long as it passes ACO safety regs, G56 is very open about technology. And GT cars is kinda where hybrids in racing got started. Also since GTs are heavier and potentially have more places to stick stuff like batteries and generators, I'd have to say that's maybe where hybrids should've been allowed first.
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Old 30 Jul 2017, 16:53 (Ref:3756084)   #86
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LMP might be a dying breed without privateers. ... LMP1 priced itself out of the market place, and when the guys who were there decided to cut the cord, the class was in trouble, though that storm was brewing for quite a while before hand.
Seems so clear and simple, doesn't it?

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I don't know how much longer TMG will bother with the class when they can go to FE to learn more about battery tech for hybrids and EVs for less outlay.
Good thought. Sad but painfully obvious ... same or much more benefit, tiny fraction of the cost.
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Old 30 Jul 2017, 18:10 (Ref:3756105)   #87
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Another article I found on the future of LMP1 and how the factory team exodus might be a good thing:

http://amp.timeinc.net/thedrive/acce...hat?source=dam

Only quibble I have with the article is that the author leaves out that Gibson Technology is still a player in hybrid tech if someone wants to team with them. Gibson (as Zytek) designed the hybrid system used in the Panoz Esperante Q9 GT1 car and also helped Toyota with their early hybrid systems on the first generation Prius. They also helped with technology on the Honda CR-Z GT300 hybrid car.
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Old 30 Jul 2017, 18:27 (Ref:3756109)   #88
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Repeating the same thing doesn't make it true. Blaming hybrids and rules for the huge budgets of your favorite team is just funny. The fact is the VAG teams spend a lot of money because VAG has the money to spend. Their r&d budget is almost twice what the next auto maker spends. And that's (not) coincidentally Toyota. If they're gone then there's no reason for Toyota or anyone else to spend that much.
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Old 30 Jul 2017, 18:35 (Ref:3756110)   #89
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Repeating the same thing doesn't make it true.
What?! How can this be? This makes no sense. On so many levels. The very fabric of internet forums is being ironically challenged here. Next you will be saying that typing FACT in capitals does not guarantee the following assertion is defiantly and verifiably true.
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Old 30 Jul 2017, 18:46 (Ref:3756114)   #90
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Repeating the same thing doesn't make it true. Blaming hybrids and rules for the huge budgets of your favorite team is just funny. The fact is the VAG teams spend a lot of money because VAG has the money to spend. Their r&d budget is almost twice what the next auto maker spends. And that's (not) coincidentally Toyota. If they're gone then there's no reason for Toyota or anyone else to spend that much.
You're right, but do remember that Toyota was able to lean on the infrastructure and resources of the failed F1 efforts. Having a wind tunnel already in place for example reduced the required budget because it already existed. This isn't the case for the VAG teams. Without the F1 effort spending money like it was going out of fashion, the LMP1 project would have potentially been more costly.
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Old 30 Jul 2017, 19:15 (Ref:3756127)   #91
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Nascar, Formula 1 and MotoGP have all one thing in common: they are all drivers' championships (at least in F1 you need to best car too, but the point is the same).

It doesn't matter if the cars are cool when what the mainstream audience wants are the drivers.
You win. Someone finally pointed it out.

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Seems so clear and simple, doesn't it?

Good thought. Sad but painfully obvious ... same or much more benefit, tiny fraction of the cost.
I think the bigger concern for Toyota FE is the hard entry cap, to be honest. The slots are filling up quickly.

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What?! How can this be? This makes no sense. On so many levels. The very fabric of internet forums is being ironically challenged here. Next you will be saying that typing FACT in capitals does not guarantee the following assertion is defiantly and verifiably true.
Does it get boring being sarcastic all the time? It seems like it would. Not that I don't appreciate it.
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Old 30 Jul 2017, 19:20 (Ref:3756131)   #92
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And we have to remember that in F1 Mercedes-Benz has spent an insane amount of money on their F1 program. Just working on the current engine rules cost Daimler a half a billion dollars alone. And yes, the cost can be partly justified by winning races and championships, and having a customer engine program.

And because Audi Sport and Porsche are gone doesn't automatically mean that TMG are going to trim the budget. Audi Sport didn't stop spending $75-100 million on their LMP program as a whole just because it became customer focused. The R8 program wasn't absorbing a huge amount of costs, but what they were saving was going into the R10 program.

And there's a big difference between what Audi did with the R10 program vs the hybrid stuff. Audi started work on the R10 in the fall of 2002, and it took them three years to have that car go from an idea to a working car. Even the initial R18 program for 2011 took the best part of two years to get from concept to an actual car.

And it's certainly not above Toyota to spend money when they want to. Even though it looked much the same, the 2012 and 2013 TS030 I don't think even shared the tub with each other. So Toyota basically did what Audi did in 2011-2012 and designed a car based on the old one, but built from the outset around a hybrid spec.

And it can be said that TMG, having all that stuff left over from F1, could do things in house to save money and time as far as having to farm things out to subcontractors. They built their own tubs, had their own wind tunnel, things that VAG didn't really have on site at Audi Sport, who's tubs were built by Dallara or YCom, and used a mix of their own wind tunnels and those of a F1 team.

I don't even think that Porsche built their own tubs or relied solely on their own wind tunnels. Peugeot didn't build their own chassis either. Like Audi and Porsche, they designed it, but didn't manufacture it.

The irony here is that most of the time, companies outsource stuff to try and save money, though that doesn't seem to have worked here.

And as I've said before, racing budgets, R&D budgets, all of that are like Government budgets. If you get things done ahead of time and under budget, you're going to have a harder time getting that big budget back when you really need it.

Wasteful spending? Yes, at least in my mind, but there's a method to the madness, even if I myself think that the method is madness.

Not to mention that with the problems that TMG had in 2015, they had to raise their budget. Bringing the TS050 online a season early and their 2017 facelift didn't come cheap.

And as I've said, the insane spending didn't happen overnight, nor was it motivated just by hybrids being there. It was all down to exploiting the ERS Incentive, aero rules (some of which were loosened up by the ACO, some of which were to get around new restrictions), and trying to make quick work of a new formula that replaced an engine based BOP formula (the air restrictor) that existed for nearly 20 years.

Add in doing so in a time compressed format (initially these rules were only going to last three years, remember--as in they should've been out the door before this season started), you're going to get rising budgets, at least as far as those in the class want to spend it.

That goes back to the whole, as someone put it either here or else where, the "go big, or go home" philosophy. IMo, it seemed that the ACO based that on Audi Sport, Porsche, and even Toyota spending huge sums of money as long as they got a viable R&D return on it.

That's why I asked earlier what's the worth of sticking around in the WEC for Toyota when they can defect to Formula E and learn as much if not more about EVs and things that they can apply to hybrid systems for a fraction of the cost?

I think that the ACO just rode the gravy train. And in doing so, never banked on a back up plan for if things go belly-up. So we're here left to wonder what their next move will be.

It's a problem that in their hands, not ours, not yours, not mine, only their hands. And even though TMG and Toyota have been big benefactors of the hybrid regs, will they stick around should Peugeot have their way? Will Peugeot even come in?

I'll also say that we might not see much if any reduction in the budgets at TMG. Like Audi Sport post 2002 in the ALMS and LM, that money might get shifted elsewhere to another project. Or that money (if they cancel the current LMP1 program) might get saved up for their next LM run.

Like everyone else here, I can only state my opinions and guesses, I don't know what anyone's next move will be until they say it.
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Old 30 Jul 2017, 19:38 (Ref:3756135)   #93
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Does it get boring being sarcastic all the time? It seems like it would. Not that I don't appreciate it.
The reality is probably that its just to easy (and too tempting) .......
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Old 30 Jul 2017, 20:19 (Ref:3756162)   #94
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Originally Posted by AoB Special Stage View Post
Does it get boring being sarcastic all the time? It seems like it would. Not that I don't appreciate it.
I like to think that I make a point with it Sometimes you can get the point across better this way, in a simply yet effective manner. Some people take 871 words and fail to get any relevant point across.

At the very least is amuses (myself anyway).

That post you quoted is not a good example of this as it was mostly sarcasm. Although there was an underlying observation buried in there. If you look hard enough

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Originally Posted by Aysedasi View Post
The reality is probably that its just to easy (and too tempting) .......
Tempting. It isn't easy. It takes a long time to craft a good one.

I should take longer.

Last edited by Adam43; 30 Jul 2017 at 20:28.
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Old 30 Jul 2017, 21:33 (Ref:3756190)   #95
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Well, Adam, you're as good at it as I am a lousy typist, and believe me, I'm horrible at typing.

Anyways, fresh point to ponder. If LMP1 is kinda blown wide open as far as private teams having a shot at overall wins at LM and elsewhere in the WEC as soon as next season (even if Toyota is around, I'd bet that the ACO would want to do something to at least make the sprint races more interesting), could that lead to a customer car "explosion"?

LMP1 hasn't really had a healthy customer car market for years. And I don't mean someone selling year old or even current spec factory cars to a privateer team.

Back in the late '90s and early '00s we had Lola, Courage and others designing and selling cars. We then had Reynard come in (who's 02S LMP675 IP was sold to Zytek/Gibson) with a car, which also lead to Zytek and Creation coming in.

First generation LMP1 had many of those same players for a while, too, as well as Lister (originally a LMP900 car that became a LMP1). Even when Courage was bought out by Oreca, we still had them around for a while.

But the customer car market in LMP1 collapsed as costs went up and it started to become a factory team playground. I think with diminishing interest in the current LMP1 package by manufacturer teams, it would hopefully raise up and opportunity for guys to provide customer cars.

We already have Ginetta with a design, as well as Dallara with SMP Racing. Who else could be joining or would we want to join? Could maybe Multimatic, who own most of the Lola Cars IP be willing to do something? Like Reynard in 2000 who laid a rotten egg with the original 2KQ (which did become a decent customer car eventually), I think that Multmatic might have a point to prove after the failure of the Riley Mk30 LMP2 car.

Granted, they already have the Mazda DPI program they can use to redeem themselves, but could they make a LMP1 chassis for a customer? Remember that LMP1 and LMP2 tubs are built to the same crash testing standards and technical regs.

Oreca have even admitted that they might look at offering up a LMP1 spec version of the 07 (or maybe something else) if they're enough demand.

Could we see the rise of the customer car to the 2000's levels again? Or is thinking that way too far fetched?
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Old 30 Jul 2017, 21:46 (Ref:3756196)   #96
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I wonder what is the chances of a fast thinking manufacturer getting into LMP1 with the current regs. They use one of the current chassis from the likes of Ginetta.
For an engine either try and use the likes of the Nissan/Cosworth unit or a F1 engine and run it in the 2MJ class.
Get one of the existing LMP2 teams (or Joest) to run it.
The manufacturer would put themselves in with a good chance of being able win Le Mans and they also would be in a strong position for influencing the 2020 rules.
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Old 30 Jul 2017, 21:47 (Ref:3756197)   #97
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I am still trying to figure out where these $4-5m privateer budgets are going to come from other than rich dudes? The WEC does not really grab enough eyeballs beyond the LM24 to warrant sponsorship commitments at that level. The ROI case just is not there.
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Old 30 Jul 2017, 21:55 (Ref:3756201)   #98
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It was rich dudes who were funding the private teams in LMP900 and LMP1 in the past.

Biggest different between that and now is that LMP2 is ultra privateer friendly, LMP1 pushed aside rich privateers in favor of factory teams, and LMP2 is a pro-am formula, which encouraged some of these team owners to become drivers.

Now I'd argue that the boot could be on the other foot. If some guy wants to go out, buy a customer car, hire an all-pro driver line up, and the ACO decide to give private teams a chance at overall wins at least in sprint races, that could bring some teams into the class.

Not to mention that LM this year did seem to give some of the LMP2 teams thoughts of LMP1 being viable if done right.
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Old 30 Jul 2017, 23:47 (Ref:3756214)   #99
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The money thing has long been a debate/ discussion: rich gentlemen have long funded racing while factories have and have not in turn, and to varying degrees ... but there have always been some wealthy people who wanted the thrill or racing, or to be part of racing, and their cash has pretty much always been essential to the sport.

I cannot remember a lot of eras when factories provided the bulk of the funding. Even with Audi propping up ALMS and the ILMC/WEC, without the P2 and GT privateers ....

What we need is more rich Arabian Gulf families ... that's where the excess cash seems to be nowadays. England, France, Russia and the U.S. have all been bled dry. China .... well I think racing, and even widespread automobile use, is to new and to centered on practicality or prestige for sports cars to be a big thing.

They seem to be much more of an electronic rather than a mechanical populace.

But I see no reason why some rich person with money to burn might not want to cut a deal with Ferrari for motors and tech support, stuff them in Dallara chassis, and rule P1 and dictate the rules change.

Red Bull's Dietrich Mateschitz actually would be someone who has the cash and the passion.
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Old 31 Jul 2017, 00:37 (Ref:3756220)   #100
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Originally Posted by Adam43 View Post
I like to think that I make a point with it Sometimes you can get the point across better this way, in a simply yet effective manner. Some people take 871 words and fail to get any relevant point across.

At the very least is amuses (myself anyway).

That post you quoted is not a good example of this as it was mostly sarcasm. Although there was an underlying observation buried in there. If you look hard enough
I'm just playing with you. Less I go insane reading through this.
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