[Race] Singapore Grand Prix

[gert]

Originally Posted by Articus

I think we've been had. Everything makes just a tiny bit more sense when you switch Max's name with Vettels. And Raikkonen with Max

I DO NOT appreciate my posts being altered as if I said something.

You are entitled to your opinion, but I take offense when you try to make it look like I wrote something that I did not write.

--

If you want to use a quote, then leave the text unaltered. That's why it is called a quote. If you want to comment on it, feel free but DO NOT change the text in the quote.
If you alter text, it is no longer a quote and you should not pretend it to be one.

[Articus]

Originally Posted by gert

I DO NOT appreciate my posts being altered as if I said something.

You are entitled to your opinion, but I take offense when you try to make it look like I wrote something that I did not write.

--

If you want to use a quote, then leave the text unaltered. That's why it is called a quote. If you want to comment on it, feel free but DO NOT change the text in the quote.
If you alter text, it is no longer a quote and you should not pretend it to be one.

Not intentional. I included my edits in Bold and implied in the response that I edited it by switching Max and Vettels names. I've seen this done before in jest (as I have also done here), apologies if that was confusing.

[gert]

Originally Posted by Articus

Not intentional. I included my edits in Bold and implied in the response that I edited it by switching Max and Vettels names. I've seen this done before in jest (as I have also done here), apologies if that was confusing.

Not intentional, sure. The letters changed by itself, probably.

[ScotsBrutesFan]

Mod Note

Changing one quote with an immediate comment indication a funny intention is one thing, doing it with several isn't necessary.

Lets move on.

[old man]

Do we know why Vettel lost control after the corner? Having driven round the outside of T1 to avoid the incident Hamilton kept well to left to keep clear of Vettel, could he see it coming or was he just positioning himself for the next corner?

[steve_r]

1st corner accidents I think deserve a little more leeway from the stewards due to their naturally rather frantic nature. However drivers also need to be more careful when putting the squeeze on their opponents. No stewards action necessary. Probably just about the right decision, although if you want to apportion blame, then Vettel was the one veering left into the path of others who had nowhere else to go. If roles were reversed and Vettel was the one squeezed, I wonder what sort of outburst that would have prompted?

Vettel should have come away from this race back in the lead of the WDC, instead he wiped out himself and two others who might have finished in between him and Hamilton in the race. Ooops.

[F1Guy]

Originally Posted by old man

Do we know why Vettel lost control after the corner? Having driven round the outside of T1 to avoid the incident Hamilton kept well to left to keep clear of Vettel, could he see it coming or was he just positioning himself for the next corner?

Hamilton was just staying out of Vettel's spray. Vettel lost control when he tried to accelerate hard and spun the tyres. The second brain fade moment a few seconds after the first for Vettel. The list is pretty long for him. Overrated really.

[steve_r]

Originally Posted by old man

Do we know why Vettel lost control after the corner? Having driven round the outside of T1 to avoid the incident Hamilton kept well to left to keep clear of Vettel, could he see it coming or was he just positioning himself for the next corner?

I think he spun on his own cars fluids, which were leaking out after the collision.

[F1Guy]

Originally Posted by steve_r

If roles were reversed and Vettel was the one squeezed, I wonder what sort of outburst that would have prompted?

Exactly. If that was Verstappen into Vettel, you can almost guarantee Verstappen would have been penalised. Specially for having an impact on the championship.

[chunder]

For me Seb did the Schumacher chop, fair enough on Max, but he did it without expecting anyone else to be there and that knocked out 3 people form the front of the race.

For me, he should be penalised for doing this as it was a deliberate act. But in all honesty he penalised himself by making sure he would not score any points.

[gert]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

I have to say this is bordering on hilarious.

I see people are making fun of me because I mention Verstappen's lack of experience?

I stand by what I said.
It's not a problem with race craft or talent but mainly
* a lack of seeing the bigger picture
* a lack of going through adversity

It's wet in Singapore, Verstappen is one of the better drivers in the rain and he is starting near the front.
He was in the middle of the Ferrari's and probably the one of the 3 who could best see what might (and was going to) happen. He was the one who could easiest of the three have avoided it.
That shoudl mean: yield to the 2 Ferrari's and maybe even lose one more spot (Alonso?).
What's the problem? On a wet track he would have been in the lead qfter a (few) lap(s).
His mindset could/should have been: "whatever happens: I need to make it through the first corners, and go from there. It's my race to lose"

For the second part: I'm sure he is disappointed about the reliability problems with his car and engine. The way he reacts about it shows that he is impatient, and that is because he never had things go really wrong before. Not his fault per sé, but he would probably have had that if he had spent a year or 2 in F3, a year or 2 in GP2 or SuperFormula or similar.
The categories itself don't matter, but by moving up slowly, you go through phases were things don't go your way, and you learn how to deal with them.
Verstappen didn't have that.
It shows a bit in his behaviour off-track.

[Peter Mallett]

Without wishing to get into the backing off thing, Max was, I believe, trying to get out of the problem because the rear of his front wheel hit the front of Kimi's rear, if you see what I mean.

[F1Guy]

Originally Posted by FIRE

Come on give that young and unexperienced German some credit....

Sorry but what's Wehrlien got to do with this?

[F1Guy]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

I have to say this is bordering on hilarious.

Sorry I have to disagree with you Aysedasi.


It IS hilarious!

[gert]

Originally Posted by F1Guy

Sorry I have to disagree with you Aysedasi.

It IS hilarious!

Sorry, of course I am wrong.
Saint Max is the best F1 driver around. No, probably the best ever, past and future.
He is the most talented and the most experienced driver around.
He never makes mistakes, it is always someone else's fault: Vettel, Raikkonen, Ricciardo, Sainz, Rosberg, Sainz, Vettel, or Vettel.


How could I ever think he made a mistake, error of judgement or lacked insight?
I will go and stand in the corner for the rest of the day.

[gert]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

I have to say this is bordering on hilarious.

Originally Posted by F1Guy

Sorry I have to disagree with you Aysedasi.
It IS hilarious!

It's alright for everyone to disagree with what I wrote. But instead of making "funny" remarks, misquoting me or just making fun of me, I would appreciate if you explained your point of view in a measured manner.

It is very easy to just write "you are wrong", "you hate Max", "it is hilarious", but it seems a lot harder to come up with good arguments on your own?

At least I tried to explain my point of view (see a few posts above)

[RWill2073]

Whoo boy... When did the "discussions" on here devolve into the worst of politics? Political hacks paid to spin would blush at the points being made in here.

This race was overall pretty boring. You lose 7 world championships and the youngest F1 winner in history in turn one and you get that, I guess.

I am struggling to find much logic being used in here. Start with Vettel: No, he is not the #1 driver in the series. He is an all time great, though, because he is capable of accomplishing more with an ideal for him car than anyone else out there now. He is not overrated, as I have seem many others discussed as the top driver along with him, so he's pretty properly rated.

Full disclosure, I am pulling for him to win the championship because I can't stand Hamilton. Even so, I can see that on pure talent, and getting more out any kind of car in any situation, Hamilton is slightly ahead of Vettel. This turn one incident is 100% on Vettel, imo. He squeezed the other two and was setting himself up for a poor entry to the corner in doing so. It was unnecessary and cost him the championship in all likelihood.

But no, he did not spin on his own, F1 guy. For someone supposedly clued in, you should know he spun on fluids from the damage from turn one. I didn't see Ricciardo being called overrated for spinning on his own after he got damage from the incident with Verstappen in (I think) Hungary.

Verstappen could not and should not have been expected to back out. There are 17 other cars hurtling toward him at a rate of speed and closeness unknown to him as he has two red cars squeezing him taking his whole attention. Backing out could have wrecked some guys behind him, or into him. I wonder what the outrage would be if he collected Hamilton into him by backing out? Would that have been inexperience too? By the time he might have thought of backing out, his wheels were locked in between Raikonnen's and Vettel's, so that if he had, one of the Ferrari's would have gone airborne potentially. Would that have been his inexperience?

Raikonnen was in a place that gave him nowhere to go, although it does appear in some photos that he had more room than initially thought. But why are we not asking why didn't back out like we are Max? Was he in a good position for the approaching corner? Is he in the championship? Doesn't he have a teammate that he knows is ahead of him that is wanting that corner? He has more to lose than Max and was in a worse position. Must have been his inexperience.

No, it is 100% on Vettel. You can't cut across the track, off the racing line for the corner, and just hope it works out. Must have been his inexperience. No, just a heavy-handed move that didn't work out. I am maybe judging it more harshly than I should, because of the consequences, as it being a turn one racing incident that happens often is another viewpoint with merit.

One last note: while Alonso made a blinding start, should we be questioning whether he should have backed off slightly? Not because of the incident taking place, but he was noticeably quicker than any car around him, on the outside of two or more cars approaching entry to a tight corner, in the wet. Was he ever going to make that corner, or would he have been making contact somewhere with someone anyway? Kind of a kamikaze move by him, but, again, nothing to lose, so why not?

But let's not forget about Ricciardo in all this. IMO, he is on that top tier around Hamilton, Vettel, Alonso and Verstappen. However, for someone who supposedly had the best car of the weekend, and was expecting to contend for the win, he was wholly disappointing. He never was close to challenging Hamilton, and routinely dropped back further and further during green flag runs. Just a dud of a race from him.

Now, this could mean one of two things: either it was a poor race for Ricciardo, or the Mercedes has the ability to be turned up more when needed, which just shows how dominant they really are, regardless of Ferrari's perceived competitiveness this year.

[wnut]

^^^^ Great post RWill2073.

"Now, this could mean one of two things: either it was a poor race for Ricciardo, or the Mercedes has the ability to be turned up more when needed, which just shows how dominant they really are, regardless of Ferrari's perceived competitiveness this year. " RWill2073


I reckon Mercedes have a 1.5 second a lap on anybody else, and are just sand bagging to make the racing look interesting/ prevent the rule makers losing patience with the current engine formula.

[justracing]

Originally Posted by RWill2073

x

But let's not forget about Ricciardo in all this. IMO, he is on that top tier around Hamilton, Vettel, Alonso and Verstappen. However, for someone who supposedly had the best car of the weekend, and was expecting to contend for the win, he was wholly disappointing. He never was close to challenging Hamilton, and routinely dropped back further and further during green flag runs. Just a dud of a race from him.

Now, this could mean one of two things: either it was a poor race for Ricciardo, or the Mercedes has the ability to be turned up more when needed, which just shows how dominant they really are, regardless of Ferrari's perceived competitiveness this year.

Good reading of the events, however my understanding was that Ricciardo was wrestling with a gearbox problem for a good deal of the race, hence his inability to close down Hamilton but no doubt about it, given the right equipment he has the talent and a wonderful temperament to boot.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by justracing

Good reading of the events, however my understanding was that Ricciardo was wrestling with a gearbox problem for a good deal of the race, hence his inability to close down Hamilton but no doubt about it, given the right equipment he has the talent and a wonderful temperament to boot.

That was what was reported on C4. As to his attitude, did you see the C4 interview with him? Excellent stuff, a real character and came across as a good bloke.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by RWill2073

One last note: while Alonso made a blinding start, should we be questioning whether he should have backed off slightly? Not because of the incident taking place, but he was noticeably quicker than any car around him, on the outside of two or more cars approaching entry to a tight corner, in the wet. Was he ever going to make that corner, or would he have been making contact somewhere with someone anyway? Kind of a kamikaze move by him, but, again, nothing to lose, so why not?

Alonso got collected by Verstappen, after Raikkonen and Verstappen's cars collided for a second time. I don't think there was much Alonso could have done.

[JeremySmith]

Sebastian Vettel never wants to take responsibility for his actions, he plainly attempts to chop across the front of Max giving him no where to go..

Multi 21 Sebastian !

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

Sebastian Vettel never wants to take responsibility for his actions, he plainly attempts to chop across the front of Max giving him no where to go..

Multi 21 Sebastian !

Multiple 21 more like (that's how many cars narrowly avoided the carnage!!!)

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by wnut

^^^^ Great post RWill2073.

"Now, this could mean one of two things: either it was a poor race for Ricciardo, or the Mercedes has the ability to be turned up more when needed, which just shows how dominant they really are, regardless of Ferrari's perceived competitiveness this year. " RWill2073


I reckon Mercedes have a 1.5 second a lap on anybody else, and are just sand bagging to make the racing look interesting/ prevent the rule makers losing patience with the current engine formula.

Not far off there I think!

[RWill2073]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Alonso got collected by Verstappen, after Raikkonen and Verstappen's cars collided for a second time. I don't think there was much Alonso could have done.

This is not what I meant at all. I'm saying, assume those three get through no problem. Could Alonso, at the speed he was going, with multiple cars on his left, turn into the corner without hitting someone or even make the corner at his speed? He was at such a greater speed than anyone else. I am wondering whether there was a path through that corner for him even if the other incident didn't happen.