Lotus in Winding-up Petition

[djinvicta]

Thank you. I've been saying that for weeks now. Renault will pick up the pieces after liquidation, pay HMRC and get a cheap team.

[GT6]

Not sure Renault will do that, i think there is a strong possibility they will leave well alone having at the moment no desire to spend the money required to turn the shell of lotus into a competitive team, that is not to say that in the future they will not return but at this moment in time i can not see it happening

[JeremySmith]

So Renault will leave F1 is that what you are sayng ?

[Mike Harte]

Well, as of 16.30 this afternoon (when the lists are prepared for the following day), it would seem that Lotus had not been able to pay off HMRC or come to a suitable agreement, as the matter has been set down to be continued in Court 15 in the Chancery Division of the High Court at a time that will not be before midday tomorrow, the 18th.

Talk about taking it right to the wire!

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by djinvicta

Thank you. I've been saying that for weeks now. Renault will pick up the pieces after liquidation, pay HMRC and get a cheap team.

I don't think that it is as simple as that, though. This saga is all about money, who has it, and what they will do with it.

My guess is that Renault have decided that they would purchase a current team, most likely Lotus, but they need to have certain assurances from BCE and/or CVC about whether they will be treated as a "historical" team and therefore receive payments along the lines of the other "historical" teams. It would seem, however, that certainly CVC are reluctant to see their annual returns being diminished to satisfy Renault, so have been unprepared as yet to provide any undertakings about payments.

In the meantime, Genii Capital are, understandably, more than reluctant to provide extra working capital to Lotus. Unlike other team owners (such as Red Bull) the monies that have been advanced to Lotus are being treated as a loan, and I would imagine that those from outside who are investing in Genii will be unhappy that they may well not see any of the loans repaid and will not want another penny spent on Lotus.

It looks more than likely that the Red Bull teams will divorce themselves from Renault and at that point they will be able to sign on with Ferrari. However, I think that at the moment there is still only a 50/50 chance that Renault will be back next year as an entrant in it's own right, and from what they are saying at the moment, they certainly won't be back merely as a suppliers of power-units.

[Mike Harte]

It would seem as though Lotus have been unable to pay HMRC the tax due even though they were given 10 days to raise the money. They appear to have asked for additional time, and the Judge has agreed to adjourne the case for a further week.

[Mike Harte]

Further to my post #55, it occurs to me that, for the first time for about 30 or so years, BCE is not truly in control of F1's destination. Although he is, without doubt, one of the minor parts in this ongoing drama, it is really Renault that would appear to hold all the cards. (Sorry for mixed metaphors)

They hold sway over the two Red Bull teams, and would seem to be in a position to set the conditions that will allow Red Bull to get out of their contract a year early. Until that is satisfied I think that is highly unlikely that Ferrari will enter into a contract to provide PSUs for the 4 cars.

In the meantime, as in post #56, Renault are in the driving seat concerning the fate of Lotus. Can BCE and CVC really afford to not grant additional payments to Renault when by not doing so could mean that F1 loses 6 cars from the grid? I think not.

The only problem that I can foresee is that BCE is not a man to be trifled with. He does appreciate others trying to get one over him, and can be quite ruthless when crossed. I sincerely hope that he is supportive of the way that Renault are playing this game, otherwise things could get nasty.

[MatCoch]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Further to my post #55, it occurs to me that, for the first time for about 30 or so years, BCE is not truly in control of F1's destination. Although he is, without doubt, one of the minor parts in this ongoing drama, it is really Renault that would appear to hold all the cards. (Sorry for mixed metaphors)

They hold sway over the two Red Bull teams, and would seem to be in a position to set the conditions that will allow Red Bull to get out of their contract a year early. Until that is satisfied I think that is highly unlikely that Ferrari will enter into a contract to provide PSUs for the 4 cars.

In the meantime, as in post #56, Renault are in the driving seat concerning the fate of Lotus. Can BCE and CVC really afford to not grant additional payments to Renault when by not doing so could mean that F1 loses 6 cars from the grid? I think not.

The only problem that I can foresee is that BCE is not a man to be trifled with. He does appreciate others trying to get one over him, and can be quite ruthless when crossed. I sincerely hope that he is supportive of the way that Renault are playing this game, otherwise things could get nasty.

Bernie's iron grip has changed in recent years through the various sales of the sport. Where once he was his own master now he's simply the figurehead for the organisation, and the link between the sport and its owners.

Memory also tells me Bernie has previously said Renault would qualify for historic payments. We also know he's paid the team's wages at least once. He's done his part, it's now a case of Renault doing its due diligence on a company on the brink of collapse.

Red Bull won't be in a position where it won't have an engine. It may not be the engine it really wants but it won't be without an engine, so I don't believe Renault holds any particular power over the future of the sport at all.

A deal with Ferrari, which looks to be the only option, wouldn't be overly onerous for the Scuderia. It is supplying Sauber, Manor and itself at this point. Manor is poised to switch to Mercedes engines, picking up the supply currently used by Enstone. That frees up a supply which could go to Toro Rosso, meaning Ferrari is only supplying an additional two cars.

Contractually, Red Bull is committed to the sport until 2020 (from memory) and would face significant financial penalties for breaking that. Of course, contracts mean little in F1, but at least the other teams will get lots of Red Bull money on the way out. Not that I can see Red Bull leaving with either team.

[JeremySmith]

I am not really sure why Ferrari would want to supply a team that could phone up
Adrian and, well you can see where this could lead ....UNLESS.. Ferrari gets some of Adrian's expertise in return for an engine supply....

[gert]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

I am not really sure why Ferrari would want to supply a team that could phone up
Adrian and, well you can see where this could lead ....UNLESS.. Ferrari gets some of Adrian's expertise in return for an engine supply....

or if they really want Max Verstappen for 2017 (as is the rumour on Dutch TV)

.. which is something Grosjean has to keep in mind when he chooses between Lotus/Renault and Haas.
He'd pick Haas with a view on Kimi's seat, but who says it's him they actually want?
If not, then staying at Lotus/Renault may just be the better option ...

[wnut]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

I am not really sure why Ferrari would want to supply a team that could phone up
Adrian and, well you can see where this could lead ....UNLESS.. Ferrari gets some of Adrian's expertise in return for an engine supply....

This could get a bit interesting as far as the rules go.
Adrian is no longer directly part of the RBR F1 program as far as I understand it, he is a consultant, he should be able to consult to Ferrari?

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

I am not really sure why Ferrari would want to supply a team that could phone up
Adrian and, well you can see where this could lead ....UNLESS.. Ferrari gets some of Adrian's expertise in return for an engine supply....

Originally Posted by wnut

This could get a bit interesting as far as the rules go.
Adrian is no longer directly part of the RBR F1 program as far as I understand it, he is a consultant, he should be able to consult to Ferrari?

It's my impression that Mr. Newey wanted out of F1 and that instead of RBR allowing him to walk away and risk him changing his mind in the future and someone else picking him up at a later date that they effectively have done the next best thing which is to keep him on the payroll doing whatever keeps him happy but also not doing work for someone else. He is effectively on indefinite gardening leave by his own choosing? I suspect his contract includes a clause the RBR has first right of refusal if he decides to get back into F1.

Richard

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

It's my impression that Mr. Newey wanted out of F1 and that instead of RBR allowing him to walk away and risk him changing his mind in the future and someone else picking him up at a later date that they effectively have done the next best thing which is to keep him on the payroll doing whatever keeps him happy but also not doing work for someone else. He is effectively on indefinite gardening leave by his own choosing? I suspect his contract includes a clause the RBR has first right of refusal if he decides to get back into F1.

Richard

I think that Adrian has tried to remove himself from the daily grind of F1 which he no longer finds interesting due to the limitations being imposed on him due to the regulations.
I think he is quite happy to consult and clearly does to RBR, I also think that should RBR sanction him to consult to Ferrari as part of an engine deal he would be quite happy to help as it would be interesting. I do not think that Newey is interested in becoming involved with the political morass that is Ferrari!
The regulations prevent teams cooperating to produce a chassis, the regulations however do not prevent them sharing a consultant.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by wnut

I think that Adrian has tried to remove himself from the daily grind of F1 which he no longer finds interesting due to the limitations being imposed on him due to the regulations.
I think he is quite happy to consult and clearly does to RBR, I also think that should RBR sanction him to consult to Ferrari as part of an engine deal he would be quite happy to help as it would be interesting. I do not think that Newey is interested in becoming involved with the political morass that is Ferrari!
The regulations prevent teams cooperating to produce a chassis, the regulations however do not prevent them sharing a consultant.

I could be wrong, but IMHO, you talk to two highly conflicting points above...

1. Newey has removed himself due to a combination of the daily grind and the current regulations.
2. He would be happy to work for RBR or Ferrari if asked.

I think that given #1, he doesn't want to work for ANYONE when it comes to F1. If he was happy to do so, he would be at RBR working in his previous capacity. And I see little about Ferrari F1 that would interest him more than RBR F1. And if he did... why would RBR risk him deciding the grass is really greener on the other side and him just walking away?

I suspect he has close to zero "real" impact on RBR "F1" from a design perspective (his choice) and until he changes his mind (regulation rework may trigger this), we will not see him back in F1 ever.

Richard

[wnut]

He is still Chief Technical Officer at RBR, and given his interests in racing, I think you are wrong about his influence on the car, there is a difference between doing everything yourself and attending every session and having oversight of the operation.
I think his influence is little diminished!

[wnut]

Originally Posted by wnut

He is still Chief Technical Officer at RBR, and given his interests in racing, I think you are wrong about his influence on the car, there is a difference between doing everything yourself and attending every session and having oversight of the operation.
I think his influence is little diminished!

I think you are right though Richard, any thought of Newey working for Ferrari is fanciful!

Renault and RBR have split now

http://www.pitpass.com/54696/Matesch...-Renault-split

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by MatCoch

Bernie's iron grip has changed in recent years through the various sales of the sport. Where once he was his own master now he's simply the figurehead for the organisation, and the link between the sport and its owners.

Memory also tells me Bernie has previously said Renault would qualify for historic payments. We also know he's paid the team's wages at least once. He's done his part, it's now a case of Renault doing its due diligence on a company on the brink of collapse.

Red Bull won't be in a position where it won't have an engine. It may not be the engine it really wants but it won't be without an engine, so I don't believe Renault holds any particular power over the future of the sport at all.

A deal with Ferrari, which looks to be the only option, wouldn't be overly onerous for the Scuderia. It is supplying Sauber, Manor and itself at this point. Manor is poised to switch to Mercedes engines, picking up the supply currently used by Enstone. That frees up a supply which could go to Toro Rosso, meaning Ferrari is only supplying an additional two cars.

Contractually, Red Bull is committed to the sport until 2020 (from memory) and would face significant financial penalties for breaking that. Of course, contracts mean little in F1, but at least the other teams will get lots of Red Bull money on the way out. Not that I can see Red Bull leaving with either team.

I'm afraid that we take a different view on these matters.

As you rightly state, BCE is now just the CEO of CVC Capital Partners' holding in F1, so although he may say that he believes that Renault should be considered a "historical" team, the money that would be required to satisfy that must be agreed by CVC not him.

As for Red Bull, it would seem as though Renault may have come to the decision that they will release the Red Bull teams from their contract under certain circumstances, however I do not believe that they have actually finalised the details of that split. I would imagine that Renaualt would want some form of compensation from Red Bull, and further, I believe that the split may well be either conditional on their purchasing another team (probably Lotus) or a far larger consideration from Red Bull if that deal collapses.

The position of Lotus is precarious. I do believe that Renault may well have signed a letter of intent to purchase Lotus, but that is not a binding contract. And, I would assume that Judge Birss in the Chancery Division court took the same stance which is why he made it clear that he was granting the final adjournment in the winding up petition.

Meanwhile, although it would seem likely that Red Bull will be using Ferrari power next season, I don't think that Ferrari want to actually sign contracts with the two teams until the Renault/Red Bull divorce is signed and sealed. This seems to be confirmed because Mateschitz and Marko appear to be using maegaphone diplomacy saying that if Ferrari won't provide them with top specification units, then they will withdraw from F1 and find alternative employment for the teams' workforces elsewhere in Red Bull's empire.

As for Newey, Red Bull would seem to have learnt from his past history, having been poached from Williams by McLaren, and then the offer that he couldn't resist from Red Bull to join them. McLaren also offered to let Newey spend time following other interests (he has always wanted to design racing boats), but I don't think that they actually gave him the opportunities that he wanted. What Red Bull have done is to provide him with the arena that he craves, and although he keeps an eye on the F1 team's designs, his primary concerns are elsewhere. And Red Bull pay him well to do what he loves.

Finally, I firmly believe that no contracts have been signed yet that concern the four teams. And in the end, all of this seems to depend on how much money that Renault are able to claw out of the clutches of CVC Capital Partners, and how quickly those payments are made. Renault, it would appear, are not satisfied to wait for the payments to be made in 10 instalments starting in April next year; they want up front payments made to them this year to fund the purchase of a team, and allow it the financial wherewithal to develop the car/team as required to compete at the sharp end.

[VIVA GT]

This wind up Lotus you're all talking about. Is it expected to be any slower than the Renault powered Lotus was?

[Casper]

Maybe CVC have a problem that is unique to RB and that is they are not broke and have the financial ability to walk away with no regrets. It is one team that they would have no financial hold over and could even conceivably buy CVC if it wanted to.

[chillibowl]

thats an interesting notion.

if CVC is looking to sell then RB would be, at the least, logical financial partner for any group looking to take over.

looking for connections where none probably exist RB possibly aligning with Ferrari engines could hint at a larger plan in the works?

[wolfhound]

Such a move with RB buying out CVC could find itself involved with conflicts of interest and attention from FIA or competition authorities.

[djinvicta]

I reckon Mike Harte and Richard Casto are hanging on in there till the price drops...and it's a snatch...

[Casper]

RB to buy CVC or F1? unlikely I would think. But they do have the resources to do what they want when they want and it is this that gets up a lot of noses as it is a very unusual situation in F1. Ferrari as big as they are have not got the financial clout that RB have and will when floated be constrained by shareholder expectations.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by djinvicta

I reckon Mike Harte and Richard Casto are hanging on in there till the price drops...and it's a snatch...

Well, my financing would be a bit dodgy, but that never stops anyone else in this sport!

Richard

[Mike Harte]

There seems to be no sense of urgency being displayed by Lopez and Genii Capital. This article from Motorsport dot com ( http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/an...uture/?v=2&s=1 ) gives one the impression that if Renault don't sign on the dotted line by this Friday, then they will then take action to resolve the matter of the Winding Up petition which will be heard and finalised on Monday 28th September.

I wonder whether PDVSA have paid their contributions for July, August and September yet. However, I do believe that although the article doesn't talk about the supposed $20 million sponsorship deal that they have with the team for 2016, I believe that the payments for next year are actually the amounts paid this year which is a way to "guarantee" the seat for the next season.

The whole situation is a sorry mess.