The movable wing from F1

[dsg]

All motorsport is somewhat artificial. When you think about it any purpose built racing car made within a specific set of rules sounds artificial.

Isn't it artificial to have a purpose built race track that goes nowhere? Maybe all motorsport should be on street circuits.

Then again with F1 being the pinnacle of motorsport seems right it should be the most artificial.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Alex Hodgkinson

Personally, I really miss the days where after a season long battle, Ferrari and Mclaren would turn up at Suzuka having done 10 straight days of testing at their chosen venus.. Special qualifying engines fitted, the cars would go out and qualify just a few 10ths apart.

It was bloody brilliant!

Don't the cars qualify "just a few tenths apart" now? Maybe even closer, and more of them too!

Originally Posted by wnut

I think I am about where you ate except I don't have your faith in Pirelli's ability to produce a lasting tyre.

Pirelli 'can' make an F1 tyre that would last for hundreds of kms. Is that what you want?

Originally Posted by dsg

All motorsport is somewhat artificial.

I think the phrase is: "Hit the nail on the head".

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by ASCII Man

Just to please very small but noisy lobby groups?

They are actually very large and noisy lobby groups. Sometimes called 'Governments'.

Most governments recognise that their number one challenge is to do something about climate change. There may be some debate as to how that is actually occurring, but there can be no denying that it is. There is also a limited amount of fossil fuels left, and the demand for them is getting higher.....

[ascarracinguk]

to me theyre making this more complicateed than it needs to be, why cant the button to activate kers be the same as the wing, push it at the start of the straight and both engage, depress the brake at the end of the straight and they both disengage....bit like a cruise control system really...

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

to me theyre making this more complicateed than it needs to be, why cant the button to activate kers be the same as the wing, push it at the start of the straight and both engage, depress the brake at the end of the straight and they both disengage....bit like a cruise control system really...

Maybe it's not such a good idea to supply an extra 80 bhp to the rear tyres at the same moment that you take away most of their grip?

[wnut]

Pirelli 'can' make an F1 tyre that would last for hundreds of kms. Is that what you want?

That is exactly what I want, and personally I do not believe that Pirelli are capable of producing ssuch a tyre. (Not producing such tyre would also appear to be criminally wasteful in pusuing a green agenda! What is the carbon profile of 3 sets of race tyres per car per race as against 1 set.)
A few years ago you will recall cars ran whole GPs on the same tyres with no refeuling, they were able to pass one another and race closely.
cf Monza 1970, 1971 etc.
If the tyres were hard and produced few marbles then more of the race track would be available for racing on.

F1 has got itself into a weird position where motor racing is no longer a priority and all we have are ugly misshapen time trial machinery that is subject to all manner of strange and artificial regulation, ( 13" rims, narrow track cars, a whole meccano set bolted onto the nose of the car etc.) and is only capable of running on a billiard table smooth surfaces on especially built circuits.
How many of them could run a GP on the old Nurburgring circuit? Flugplatz anyone?

Currently we have more resources, money and talent involved in F1 than ever before, resulting in very bad and artificial motor racing.

[ASCII Man]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Maybe it's not such a good idea to supply an extra 80 bhp to the rear tyres at the same moment that you take away most of their grip?

That's actually a great idea, to be honest.

[Morris Dancer]

Originally Posted by wnut

Pirelli 'can' make an F1 tyre that would last for hundreds of kms. Is that what you want?

That is exactly what I want, and personally I do not believe that Pirelli are capable of producing ssuch a tyre. (Not producing such tyre would also appear to be criminally wasteful in pusuing a green agenda! What is the carbon profile of 3 sets of race tyres per car per race as against 1 set.)
A few years ago you will recall cars ran whole GPs on the same tyres with no refeuling, they were able to pass one another and race closely.
cf Monza 1970, 1971 etc.
If the tyres were hard and produced few marbles then more of the race track would be available for racing on.

F1 has got itself into a weird position where motor racing is no longer a priority and all we have are ugly misshapen time trial machinery that is subject to all manner of strange and artificial regulation, ( 13" rims, narrow track cars, a whole meccano set bolted onto the nose of the car etc.) and is only capable of running on a billiard table smooth surfaces on especially built circuits.
How many of them could run a GP on the old Nurburgring circuit? Flugplatz anyone?

Currently we have more resources, money and talent involved in F1 than ever before, resulting in very bad and artificial motor racing.

You're spot-on. This year's F1 World [sic] Championship is in danger of degenerating into a complete farce. The FIA should open its eyes, see the elephant in the room, and get rid of wings, KERS restrictions and tyre-changing altogether.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by wnut

That is exactly what I want, and personally I do not believe that Pirelli are capable of producing ssuch a tyre. (Not producing such tyre would also appear to be criminally wasteful in pusuing a green agenda! What is the carbon profile of 3 sets of race tyres per car per race as against 1 set.)
A few years ago you will recall cars ran whole GPs on the same tyres with no refeuling, they were able to pass one another and race closely.
cf Monza 1970, 1971 etc.
If the tyres were hard and produced few marbles then more of the race track would be available for racing on.

F1 has got itself into a weird position where motor racing is no longer a priority and all we have are ugly misshapen time trial machinery that is subject to all manner of strange and artificial regulation, ( 13" rims, narrow track cars, a whole meccano set bolted onto the nose of the car etc.) and is only capable of running on a billiard table smooth surfaces on especially built circuits.
How many of them could run a GP on the old Nurburgring circuit? Flugplatz anyone?

Currently we have more resources, money and talent involved in F1 than ever before, resulting in very bad and artificial motor racing.

If Bridgestone and Michelin can make a tyre last a whole race distance, whilst at the same time competing against one another for grip. Then I'm sure that it isn't beyond the wit of Pirelli to produce a tyre that easily lasts a whole weekend with probably more up-to-date tyre technology.

I think that Pirelli meet the "green agenda" by agreeing not to allow thousands of kms of pre-season testing with an endless supply of tyres. Indeed, we heard one driver complaining that he hadn't got enough tyres!

I'm also sure that if F1 had the "old Nurburgring" on its schedule, the engineers of each team would come up with something within the rules to enable them to compete adequately. Raising the ride height would be a good start.

Probably no longer race there because of safety issues rather than technical issues, I would have thought.

[Alex Hodgkinson]

Originally Posted by wnut

Pirelli 'can' make an F1 tyre that would last for hundreds of kms. Is that what you want?

That is exactly what I want, and personally I do not believe that Pirelli are capable of producing ssuch a tyre. (Not producing such tyre would also appear to be criminally wasteful in pusuing a green agenda! What is the carbon profile of 3 sets of race tyres per car per race as against 1 set.)
A few years ago you will recall cars ran whole GPs on the same tyres with no refeuling, they were able to pass one another and race closely.
cf Monza 1970, 1971 etc.
If the tyres were hard and produced few marbles then more of the race track would be available for racing on.

F1 has got itself into a weird position where motor racing is no longer a priority and all we have are ugly misshapen time trial machinery that is subject to all manner of strange and artificial regulation, ( 13" rims, narrow track cars, a whole meccano set bolted onto the nose of the car etc.) and is only capable of running on a billiard table smooth surfaces on especially built circuits.
How many of them could run a GP on the old Nurburgring circuit? Flugplatz anyone?

Currently we have more resources, money and talent involved in F1 than ever before, resulting in very bad and artificial motor racing.

Superb post, I agree wholeheartedly.

Picking up on the tyre situation, I also feel that super-soft tyres harm the racing. As you say, the marbles produced by them make off-line conditions unbearable.

Personally, I also think that the year the FIA stipulated only that one set of tyres were to be used during the race was one of the most interesting seasons of recent years.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by ASCII Man

That's actually a great idea, to be honest.

And yet none of the teams appear to have thought of it. But you weren't being serious anyway, were you?

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Alex Hodgkinson

Picking up on the tyre situation, I also feel that super-soft tyres harm the racing. As you say, the marbles produced by them make off-line conditions unbearable.

During the 2010 Canadian GP there were numerous references to marbles being off-line. Indeed, it was the only race of the year to have noticeable amounts of marbles off-line. There were also numerous references to suggest that the Canadian GP was also the best race of the season.

Originally Posted by Alex Hodgkinson

Personally, I also think that the year the FIA stipulated only that one set of tyres were to be used during the race was one of the most interesting seasons of recent years.

hmmm. I think that it would have been more interesting if there had been the option to do an entire race on one set of tyres, rather than the compulsion to do an entire race on one set of tyres.

We must get back on topic. There is a tyre thread elsewhere.

[ASCII Man]

Originally Posted by Marbot

And yet none of the teams appear to have thought of it. But you weren't being serious anyway, were you?

I am being serious.

Ofcourse the teams wouldn't have considered it themselves as it's counterproductive to their performance.
The movable wing is there purely for entertainment purposes, so why not go the whole way and make KERS and the wing only operable at the same time?

That would be really entertaining.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by ASCII Man

I am being serious.

Ofcourse the teams wouldn't have considered it themselves as it's counterproductive to their performance.
The movable wing is there purely for entertainment purposes, so why not go the whole way and make KERS and the wing only operable at the same time?

That would be really entertaining.

Surely the option of not pressing the button would be hard to resist? Better still would be the option of not bothering to fit a KERS to your car.

[ASCII Man]

Better still would be to fit neither, and actually try to solve the real problems.
But I guess the brilliant minds of the overtaking working group can't think of anything better than superficial non-solutions.

[ascarracinguk]

i hope when they bring in the new turbo engines they will let the drivers regulate boost, it worked really well with champccar back in the day, youd get a lot of overtaking, different people using boost at different time so strategies were different, that will make racing better

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by ASCII Man

Better still would be to fit neither, and actually try to solve the real problems.

Apparently we have to wait another couple of years for this to happen. Only a huge reduction in downforce will solve this, but then we'll have the worse problem of people moaning that F1 won't be fast enough if they take all that downforce away. Who'd want to be a member of the OWG?

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

i hope when they bring in the new turbo engines they will let the drivers regulate boost, it worked really well with champccar back in the day, youd get a lot of overtaking, different people using boost at different time so strategies were different, that will make racing better

It did seem to have an effect in Champcars, but they could pit and put in as much fuel as required.

2013 F1 will be a regulated fuel flow series, with a maximum fuel capacity limit.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by ASCII Man

......
But I guess the brilliant minds of the overtaking working group can't think of anything better than superficial non-solutions.

I'm ready to agree with this.
Having a group from inside the sport actually try to resolve the problems hasn't worked particularly well and in the end they are probably far too close to the sport to see the wood for the trees.

the solutions they have come up with haven't worked well and I don't think the 2011 solutions will work either.
Something far more fundamental needs to be done and no one in the working group seem to be able to see that.

[Marbot]

These people want to keep their wind tunnels, super computers and CFD equipment. They are not going to be Turkeys wanting to vote for Christmas.

[Marbot]

Some questions have been raised with regard to the operation of the rear wing flap.

For instance, can it it be used if you are within one second of a back marker car?

Also, can it be used during qualifying to allow team mates to slip-stream each other, in order that both drivers get a faster lap time?

Will it be that this technique becomes the norm?

How easy will it be to 'pull a fast one' on your team mate?

[ascarracinguk]

i dont like this whole within 1 second and only allowed to use it on the straight, how on earth does a driver know if hes within 1 second? what happens if he uses it 1.1 seconds behind? a 10 second penalty??

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

i dont like this whole within 1 second and only allowed to use it on the straight, how on earth does a driver know if hes within 1 second? what happens if he uses it 1.1 seconds behind? a 10 second penalty??

Apparently he gets a light come on his steering wheel to inform him that he can use the wing flap. The FIA will measure the distance/time using markings on the track.

It occurred to me that you can buy road cars (Peugeot 3008 is an example) that tell you when you are within a certain distance/time of/to the car in front. Is someone missing a trick here?

[PabloTeK]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Apparently he gets a light come on his steering wheel to inform him that he can use the wing flap. The FIA will measure the distance/time using markings on the track.

It occurred to me that you can buy road cars (Peugeot 3008 is an example) that tell you when you are within a certain distance/time of/to the car in front. Is someone missing a trick here?

I thought they were going to use the GPS systems the cars have? Makes sense now they display live gap information to use that.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by PabloTeK

I thought they were going to use the GPS systems the cars have? Makes sense now they display live gap information to use that.

That's correct I think. I think that I am referring to the visual aid to help people watching it on TV.

Autosport.

"To help Formula 1 fans and television commentators understand the implementation of the rules better, lines will be painted on the track to mark out the overtaking and timing zone.

A single line on the straight will show where the overtaking zone starts, while two lines will be painted at the preceding corner to indicate the one-second time difference distance. This latter line will also serve as a visual back up for the FIA should the official timing transponders fail at any point."