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Old 13 Jun 2013, 14:35 (Ref:3262156)   #51
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..... or not, depending on your perspective!
Exactly so John!
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Old 14 Jun 2013, 07:11 (Ref:3262469)   #52
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Yeah, just look at Webber's performance, it was so easy for him to dominate like Vettel did... 0.7 behind in Q and 26 seconds in the race
Webber is no where near as good as Vettel IMO. Vettel had the talent to put the car on pole and that is where he had the upper hand. The Red Bull has shown it is a tyre eater in dirty air which is why both drivers have found it difficult to move through traffic. In Canada Vettel had pole position and unlike the Mercedes, it has the pace in the slower corners to make the difference. Its been their design philosophy for 4 years now and although the RB lacks the straight-line speed of the Ferrari's and Merc's, it carries thew advantage in the slower corners. Canada has a few of those and this made up for the loss on the straights IMO. Webber was down the drid so obviously isn't going to reap the kind of rewards of his team mate.
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Old 14 Jun 2013, 12:02 (Ref:3262614)   #53
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In contrast, Alonso does not seem great at qualifying. 2010 the last dry pole!
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Old 14 Jun 2013, 13:05 (Ref:3262640)   #54
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Vettel's qualifying ability has been absolutely vital for his success with RBR because the RB depends on pole position far more than the other front running cars when hoping for a race win. One more reason why it's not necessarily an easy car to win in, not for everybody anyway. It is a very good match with Vettel's personal strengths though.
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Old 14 Jun 2013, 13:41 (Ref:3262648)   #55
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Webber is no where near as good as Vettel IMO. Vettel had the talent to put the car on pole and that is where he had the upper hand. The Red Bull has shown it is a tyre eater in dirty air which is why both drivers have found it difficult to move through traffic. In Canada Vettel had pole position and unlike the Mercedes, it has the pace in the slower corners to make the difference. Its been their design philosophy for 4 years now and although the RB lacks the straight-line speed of the Ferrari's and Merc's, it carries thew advantage in the slower corners. Canada has a few of those and this made up for the loss on the straights IMO. Webber was down the drid so obviously isn't going to reap the kind of rewards of his team mate.
Yeah, and Vettel has done a fantastic season so far, extracting most of the car (and tyres) in every race without making any serious error, but he was let down twice by his team. First in China's Q when the team made him go out on the prime tyre, and then in Spain losing a lot of time trying a 3 stop strategy that didn't work. Yes, that was the only two times he's missed the podium.

Hamilton OTOH, is still trying to dominate a team mate who has outqualified him 3 times and has already won a GP. But even then he doesn't have the car to fight Seb and Fernando.
And Alonso even if he blames the luck, has done an average and inconsistent job so far in my opinion. In Australia the team rushed him into the pits for the first pit stop, but I think they wouldn't have done it had he outqualified Massa. It was an easy win compromised by an average qualifying.
In Malaisya he was outqualified again by Massa, and could've fought for the win again if it was not for that silly rookie error in the first corner.
And in the next five races Kimi's beaten him 3 times in Q with a slower Lotus. Monaco's race was compromised again by that fact, he had to fight the midfield runners and was beaten by Perez, Sutil and Button.
Then in Barhain he had that DRS problem, you can call that bad luck. But then again trying to open it in the middle of a stint and therefore having to pit losing tons of seconds was his mistake, another one.


So to summarize it, IMHO Vettel isn't leading because of luck or a dominant car, or any other excuse that people could invent. He's 36 points clear of Fernando because he's done great while the spaniard has made some mistakes that costed him big points.
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Old 14 Jun 2013, 13:44 (Ref:3262651)   #56
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In contrast, Alonso does not seem great at qualifying. 2010 the last dry pole!
This season that seems to be down to struggling to get enough heat into the tyres. But that doesn't seem to worry Vettel.
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Old 14 Jun 2013, 15:04 (Ref:3262674)   #57
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Hamilton's certainly had the best of everything for his entire career,
As a motorsport fan, I was offended at Hamilton's initial presence in F1. As a principle, I don't think F1 teams should be sponsoring youngers drivers (under 22?), and definitely not making their path easier. How they get to F1 is a part of the process of being a hardened pro, imo. However...

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but he's always delivered.
I never acknowledged this fact. I think a season or two in an uncompetitive car before F1, would've helped him develop other qualities. I don't know, I think if he hadn't had it so easy early on in his career, he could've won in 2010. Passionate fans of his would have to be disappointed how he dropped form after winning in Belgium. The way that particular season turned out, he should've ran away with it from then on imo.
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Old 15 Jun 2013, 23:33 (Ref:3263200)   #58
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As a motorsport fan, I was offended at Hamilton's initial presence in F1. As a principle, I don't think F1 teams should be sponsoring youngers drivers (under 22?), and definitely not making their path easier. How they get to F1 is a part of the process of being a hardened pro, imo. However...
Sorry, but that is nonsense. A team can do what it likes to bring a driver through. I don't believe there is any inherent advantage in starting at the back.

Red Bull took on Vettel when he was under 22 btw. What an odd age to select, funnily enough exactly Hamilton's age when he started in F1. What a coincidence. Oh and he started his F1 career in a BMW and a very competitive, Newey designed and Ferrari engined STR. The school of hard knocks has another graduate!
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Old 16 Jun 2013, 02:44 (Ref:3263256)   #59
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Sorry, but that is nonsense.
Woah, take it easy. In principle, I don't think F1 teams should be "developing" drivers from a young age. I can't be bothered explaining at length why atm. That's atm.

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A team can do what it likes to bring a driver through.
Yes they can.

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I don't believe there is any inherent advantage in starting at the back.
I did not say starting at the back. However, I do think there's some merit in spending some time driving a weak car, a weak team, and having to improvise or scratch around for a 5th place or like.

This, as opposed to having the best car, resources funds and guiding a car to a win. I don't think it was a accident that Hamilton's worst races of 07 and 08 were at Brazil, and the title was on the line. I don't think it's an accident that Hamilton's best race when the title was on the line was at Abu Dhabi in 10, when he really had no chance.

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Red Bull took on Vettel when he was under 22 btw. What an odd age to select, funnily enough exactly Hamilton's age when he started in F1. What a coincidence. Oh and he started his F1 career in a BMW and a very competitive, Newey designed and Ferrari engined STR. The school of hard knocks has another graduate!
Yeah, but was does that mean? You are only looking at Hamilton and Vettel's career. I think it's fair to say that Vettel has shown enough that he'd have made it in F1 with or without Red Bull's help.

But you've kind of helped me make my point. Leaving Hamiilton and Vettel aside, what about all the other drivers that have been part of a driver "development" program at McLaren or Red Bull? They might provide some sponsorship, but they done nothing for a lot of drivers.
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Old 16 Jun 2013, 02:59 (Ref:3263259)   #60
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Sorry, but that is nonsense. A team can do what it likes to bring a driver through. I don't believe there is any inherent advantage in starting at the back.

Red Bull took on Vettel when he was under 22 btw. What an odd age to select, funnily enough exactly Hamilton's age when he started in F1. What a coincidence. Oh and he started his F1 career in a BMW and a very competitive, Newey designed and Ferrari engined STR. The school of hard knocks has another graduate!
We may add that he beat both Mr. Webber and Coulthard who were both driving Newey designed and updated RBRs in the championship standings in 2008 and he also won the Italian GP for STR, and it is the development team, and nobody else has even come close at STR.

Besides if FormerF1Champ holds that opinion, he is entitled to it!
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Old 16 Jun 2013, 08:31 (Ref:3263329)   #61
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We may add that he beat both Mr. Webber and Coulthard who were both driving Newey designed and updated RBRs in the championship standings in 2008
I had to look that up to make sure. Unbelievable! Even if you take away the Monza win, which was a deviation from his normal results, he still was a clear winner.

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Besides if FormerF1Champ holds that opinion, he is entitled to it!
Thank you!
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Old 16 Jun 2013, 11:29 (Ref:3263367)   #62
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Easy to check. Put him in the same car as LH, FA, JB, NR, JB (the otherone), and see who wins.

Oh, hold on, what do you mean we can't do that?

As long as they are different cars then you cannot say for certain whether one driver is better or worse than another. Certainly at the level of an F1 driver.
Ehem.

1.42.9 Hamilton
1.44.0 Vettel
1.44.3 Barrichello
1.44.4 Ben Collins
1.44.6 Mansell
1.44.7 Hamilton Wet/Oily
1.44.7 Button

Just need to get alonso on there now oh and Rossberg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Gear_test_track
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Old 16 Jun 2013, 11:38 (Ref:3263368)   #63
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Ben Collins is the fourth-fastest driver in Formula 1 (potentially).
Even Mansell hasn't quit.
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Old 16 Jun 2013, 11:48 (Ref:3263371)   #64
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The top three are just in the order of how much they cared and tried! Lewis went back on a good day and didn't stop pounding round until he was happy. Vettel tried more than anyone until Lewis came back.

Not that there is anything wrong with that. Shows that they had it easy by entering F1 in an era of infinite testing!
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Old 16 Jun 2013, 11:53 (Ref:3263372)   #65
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Ehem.

1.42.9 Hamilton
1.44.0 Vettel
1.44.3 Barrichello
1.44.4 Ben Collins
1.44.6 Mansell
1.44.7 Hamilton Wet/Oily
1.44.7 Button

Just need to get alonso on there now oh and Rossberg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Gear_test_track
Ah, I remember that Hamilton second run on Top Gear, he also had something to say about how easy it's been for Vettel when interviewed by Clarkson during the show. Who'd have expected...
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Old 17 Jun 2013, 10:35 (Ref:3263740)   #66
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Ehem.

1.42.9 Hamilton
1.44.0 Vettel
1.44.3 Barrichello
1.44.4 Ben Collins
1.44.6 Mansell
1.44.7 Hamilton Wet/Oily
1.44.7 Button

Just need to get alonso on there now oh and Rossberg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Gear_test_track
I'd forgotten about that. Definitive proof, if it were needed, of something!
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Old 17 Jun 2013, 10:43 (Ref:3263743)   #67
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As a motorsport fan, I was offended at Hamilton's initial presence in F1. As a principle, I don't think F1 teams should be sponsoring youngers drivers (under 22?), and definitely not making their path easier. How they get to F1 is a part of the process of being a hardened pro, imo. However...
Weird thing to be offended about (but you are entitled). LH worked exceptionally hard to get where he is now, just like all other drivers in F1. Did he actually have it easier than the other drivers? Yes, he had funding, but he still need to work hard and produce the goods, and his family went without so he could get there. Unlike other drivers in F1 who have come from plenty of cash, or a racing background (Rosberg!). So he was just as entitled as anyone else who gets to F1 to be there.

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I never acknowledged this fact. I think a season or two in an uncompetitive car before F1, would've helped him develop other qualities. I don't know, I think if he hadn't had it so easy early on in his career, he could've won in 2010. Passionate fans of his would have to be disappointed how he dropped form after winning in Belgium. The way that particular season turned out, he should've ran away with it from then on imo.
LH did his growing up in the spotlight of F1, prior to that he raced karts and cars that were not necessarily the best. My opinion of your opinion that he had it easy is that it's wrong.
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Old 17 Jun 2013, 15:11 (Ref:3263842)   #68
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I'd forgotten about that. Definitive proof, if it were needed, of something!
Whilst not wanting to take Top Gear too seriously I'd say it did LH no harm to get two days practice where everyone else had only one.
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Old 17 Jun 2013, 15:45 (Ref:3263855)   #69
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Hamilton Wet/Oily
My favourite description of Hamilton ever.




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Old 17 Jun 2013, 16:26 (Ref:3263883)   #70
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Hamilton OTOH, is still trying to dominate a team mate who has outqualified him 3 times and has already won a GP. But even then he doesn't have the car to fight Seb and Fernando.
That is very true. To expand on that he is also settling into a brand new team and learning about a car that has only recently been adapted to suit him more. I think its credit to Lewis he is 20 points ahead of his team mate regardless of the three poles and race win Nico has earned. Its also a credit he is so close to Nico in terms of pace considering the technical issues he is having. I rate Nico highly and see this as a strong partnership.
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Old 18 Jun 2013, 01:11 (Ref:3264096)   #71
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Weird thing to be offended about (but you are entitled).(1) LH worked exceptionally hard to get where he is now, just like all other drivers in F1. (2)Did he actually have it easier than the other drivers? Yes, he had funding, but he still need to work hard and produce the goods, and his family went without so he could get there.(3) Unlike other drivers in F1 who have come from plenty of cash, or a racing background (Rosberg!). So he was just as entitled as anyone else who gets to F1 to be there.

LH did his growing up in the spotlight of F1, prior to that he raced karts and cars that were not necessarily the best. My opinion of your opinion that he had it easy is that it's wrong.
I was wondering when you'd disagree with me again, after last time. It's taken longer than I would've thought. Buy anyway...

1) Orly? What did he do? "Hello Mr Dennis, I'd like to drive for you one day hehehe"

2) So, was it him, or was it his dad? Was it his determination or his dad's? His dad does come across as a bit of a pageant mum.

3) Heaps of cash does not mean you'll make it and there are still many obstacles to face even if you have multi-nationals supporting you. There a more cashed up potential racers than there are than those who actually succeed. Even with a father who was a racing driver, there are still many obstacles that you have to work through and is not a guarantee.
But when a team chooses you career path, it opens up a free run to the top. The fact that Hamilton has had this is more valuable than someone who has more cash.

More drivers would've been burnt by McLaren/Red Bull programs (particularly Red Bull) than those that have been enhanced. That is not what development programs, of any kind, are supposed to do. There's a difference between working hard and knowing you'll get a result, like Hamilton has had the comfort of doing, and working hard, but not sure you'll get your desired result, pretty much like everyone else.

But no, Hamilton won u14 kart races in karts that were not necessarily the best, but still pretty good, hey? So what? There's more to it than that.
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Old 18 Jun 2013, 05:53 (Ref:3264146)   #72
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Ehem.

1.42.9 Hamilton
1.44.0 Vettel
1.44.3 Barrichello
1.44.4 Ben Collins
1.44.6 Mansell
1.44.7 Hamilton Wet/Oily
1.44.7 Button

Just need to get alonso on there now oh and Rossberg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_Gear_test_track
Definative proof if ever we needed it. I remember Lewis regularly outqualifying Jenson by 2 seconds when they drove for McLaren too.
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Old 18 Jun 2013, 06:32 (Ref:3264157)   #73
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I was wondering when you'd disagree with me again, after last time. It's taken longer than I would've thought.
Is this dummy yours?

I'm confused. It seems you will defend to the death your right to express your opinion in any way you see fit, and yet you can't resist the barbed comments when someone else dares to question your opinion and express theirs.

If you want to spend your time somewhere where only your opinion is accepted, start your own ****ing forum.
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Old 22 Jun 2013, 23:04 (Ref:3267546)   #74
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I agree with Henners. Lewis has been very consistant this year, and lets give him a chance. It takes a while to get up to speed, so all in all lets judge at the end of the season.
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Old 24 Jun 2013, 20:24 (Ref:3269133)   #75
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Really Lewis? You, the guy who was in the McLaren camp as a teenager? Every young boys dream. Talk about spoilt. as a macca fan I just couldn't warm to the guy. No respect or appreciation for what has happened to get him where he is.
I am sick of these young brats in modern F1..
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