What would you do with this?

[John Turner]

One of the off track stars for Kev and myself at the recent LMC event was this 1937 Adler Super Trumpf, an ex Le Mans car. For us it just seemed to sum up what the old racing car movement and this event in particular was all about. The car, I now learn from the September issue of Classic and Sports Car was in 'as found' condition and went on to win the Heritage Club's 'Best of show'. Now, in what is probably a bit of a role reversal, Kev thinks that it should be left in this condition, whereas I would like to see it sympathetically (but not over) restored. I have 'a thing' about old racing cars never being retired and that they should always be used for the purpose for which they were built, and with certain notable exceptions, not disappearing into museums or private collections. John Ruston has noted the reduction in races for prewar cars, and I fear that such races will disappear altogether, which would be a huge shame and not a situation easily recovered from. We should keep these cars running for as long as possible and you could view historic racing as a sort of active and working museum for them.

So there are really two issues here. What do you think should happen to the Adler, and secondly, what is your view generally about pre war racing cars, all now 70 years old or more? Should we be trying to keep them on the tracks for as long as possible, or is it time to accept that through their age (and in some cases, their value) we should accept that race events for them will continue to diminish until very little is left. The VSCC in the UK clearly has an important role to play, but interestingly, although they do cater for PVTs, I don't think, but stand to be corrected, that they allow closed cars in their races, so cars like the Adler would not be catered for anyway.

[jamesholland]

I think the Adler is fine as it is too but I don't think I could really object if the owner wanted to give it a coat of paint. It would however be a shame to give it a total "restoration" to standards that didn't prevail when it was new.

As far as pre war racing is concerned there are all sorts of reasons why grids are perhaps thinner than we would like but apropos the closed car question I think I'm correct in saying that the MSA don't allow pre war saloons to race. I do think that an exception should be made in the Adler's case as it is clearly a racing car and not an ordinary road going saloon.

[john ruston]

To answer the question.
Rebuild it and race it!
Don't understand this sympathetic bit as they are rebuilt well or not so well,or just plain buggered up .
Can't stand this built in patina stuff as they will age again if you use them.
Been thinking about what to do about Pre War racing as have been asked by Chris this week.
Short answer is that unless someone be it an organiser or individule wants to push it nothing will happen.
Most VSCC races are for Specials although John Guyatt is doing a good job with his series within VSCC.
Legends have enough on their plate with SM and Woodcote.All organisers are beginning to fight each other.
My idea is two 25 min races at a meeting as an hour is to long,
Split into four classes,Sports Racers,Grand Tourers,up to 1930 and 30 to 40.
Number cars so people can see who is racing against whom.
Last race of season at Spa or Donington,Handicap based on previous performance
Important for flagship race to be Silverstone Festival as it was when Bob Wood ran the Team Race.If this would return I would enter two Teams so there are six entries!

Three race season.
Thats about it with proper cars governed by a dictator or committee of two dictators.

Save a lot of messing about and bring back,Lagondas,Bentleys and Astons all of which seem to have gone missing due to not being able to compete.

We don't bother entering Talbots in Legends races as they can't compete within class or overall structure.They can in Le Mans based races but there is now only the one every two years and we are probably about to lose that due to lack of quality and depth of entries.

Today's ramble before I collect troops from Sea World!

[john ruston]

I would like to make the point that interest in Pre War Racing is now very thin and I would be suprised if this thread obtains many views or responses.

To widen the question can someone explain why Pre War racing has deteriorated despite the values of cars skyrocketing or could this be a reason ?

Need people away from the small very old bags of bolts world!

[Moosehead]

Really can't understand why pre-war racing isn't more popular. From a spectators point of view there's so much going for it...........enormous variation in size and shape between cars, differing engine noise, completely different handling characteristics, lots of sliding around and perhaps most important the fact that even when sitting as far back as say the Silverstone stands are from the track you can still see the drivers mauling them around. I find watching these guys similar to watching bike racers, because you can see so much of the driver you can 'read' their body language and get an insight into their thoughts (am I being a little too deep here?) which at times sets me off laughing at their antics. I'd love to have a crack at one of these cars (wheres me lottery ticket) as they look hilarious to drive even when not dicing with another car.

Long live the Pre-War racing.

[Rudernst]

Originally Posted by john ruston

I would like to make the point that interest in Pre War Racing is now very thin and I would be suprised if this thread obtains many views or responses.

To widen the question can someone explain why Pre War racing has deteriorated despite the values of cars skyrocketing or could this be a reason ?

Need people away from the small very old bags of bolts world!

Hi,
the extraordinary inflated prices for pre war cars are killing racing as cars tend to go to collectors that think they are too valuable to risk in racing. Value inflation certainly hurt pre war AMOC racing severely as the dedicated racers could not afford the cars anymore or just cashed in and left. I sold a car to somebody who then turned down an invitation to the Goodwood Revival because of the "risk".

As to the Adler mentioned above:
This one is called the "Rennlimousine" meaning racing saloon.
They were quite successful at Le Mans in period because of the long straights. The are powered by a a gutless 1,5 litre sidevalve engine and hopeless on modern tracks. Beeing a German, I looked into creating a rebody, chassis are quite plentiful but gave up as cost against competiveness is hopeless. That unrestored time warp car, last used on the road in New York in the 50ies and 60 ies is unfortunately priceless or I would have bought it and gone racing with it regardless of how slow it was. This proves what I said above.

Rudolf

[grantp]

Originally Posted by Moosehead

Really can't understand why pre-war racing isn't more popular. From a spectators point of view there's so much going for it...........enormous variation in size and shape between cars, differing engine noise, completely different handling characteristics, lots of sliding around and perhaps most important the fact that even when sitting as far back as say the Silverstone stands are from the track you can still see the drivers mauling them around. I find watching these guys similar to watching bike racers, because you can see so much of the driver you can 'read' their body language and get an insight into their thoughts (am I being a little too deep here?) which at times sets me off laughing at their antics. I'd love to have a crack at one of these cars (wheres me lottery ticket) as they look hilarious to drive even when not dicing with another car.

Long live the Pre-War racing.

^What he said.

[john ruston]

On car values.
Certainly the Woodcote Cup cars are much more valuable than the Pre War cars.
Racing those C and D types at 2 to 4 mil each leave the Pre Wars way behind.
Ulsters at 500/600 K ,Talbot Works Cars at 750/1000K each,Richard Pilkington races his 2 mil Talbot.Same time you can race and get entrys for 40 K and less.
Good news is that some of Astons have gone to owners that want to race and six of seven Works Talbots are being raced regularly.Bentleys are not raced as much but many of those drivers are doing Rallies or moved to later classes.
Norman and his Stutz is a good example of a car that provides a wonderful alternative to all those British things.328's should be more plentiful as still competitive.
Problem could be speed of Altas and Nash brigade,So much quicker than anything else.Another reason why the races need effectively to be split into four seperate races.
We have had a couple of new drivers this year who are reasonable in later cars but found the Pre War things a bit much with the leaning over,open cockpit,little brakes and sitting in things at 125 mph seemed a bit(lot)vunreable.They were slow!
The difference between good and not so good drivers is more marked in the older cars.We have 40 secs round Le Mans in same car.
All good stuff.
Thing that started this thread.Rebuild it before it totally falls apart.

[John Turner]

Good post, John. Some lively discussion so far, so maybe (hoping!) your #4 is wrong!

Good info. from Rudolf, too.

I have to say that I love that Adler. It's not alone amongst closed cars that raced before the war particularly at Le Mans, of course.

[krt917]

Originally Posted by john ruston

I would like to make the point that interest in Pre War Racing is now very thin and I would be suprised if this thread obtains many views or responses.

To widen the question can someone explain why Pre War racing has deteriorated despite the values of cars skyrocketing or could this be a reason ?

I'm sure the views already expressed - cost of the cars and wide range of performance - are factors, but I think it also has something to do with the nature of historic racing.

Most people like cars from a particular period of their own lives - say, when they were growing up or became first interested in the sport. When they are then old enough (by which I mean rich enough!) they then go and buy the cars that meant something to them. Of course, as time goes by that means the 'in' period moves on.

I am considered something of a freak because most racing periods and categories interest me, but many of my colleagues will be quite specific about the eras and cars they like. And pre-war cars are far too early for them! Throw in the fact that the cars seem slow, compared to everything else (even though a passenger ride would probably change some people's minds about that!), and I think that helps to explain why the pre-war cars aren't popular with the younger generation.

The post-war sportscars don't suffer as much, partly because they're faster, but also because people know names like Jaguar, Ferrari and Aston Martin better than they do Alta, Talbot, Riley etc.

Historic racing, by definition, also gets bigger and bigger as new eras (Group C being one of the latest) move from being contemporary to historic and provide prospective entrants with more of a choice.

Despite all that, though, I'd like to see pre-war racing continue - as these cars were built to race and it's a great opportunity to see them used. But I agree with John that something needs to be done to encourage more cars, like Alfas and Astons out to join the fun.

[zefarelly]

I love the 30's cars, the engineering styling and execution fascinate, also they seem largely very good quality machines, the fact I can't get in most of thems a problem.

As an Engineer (of sorts!) I like the fact they're repairable, therefore maintainable. as opposed to the disposability of everything new now, even modern parts for old cars.

Part of the problem with historics in general is they've become so over pumped that even the relatively basic toys are extremely highly strung and therefore getting unreliable, requiring specialist care, coupled with ever incresing costs, perhaps this is why many cars end up in investors collections gathering dust as opposed to enthusiasts workshops being used ?

THats said, my answer to the original question would be a brushed layer of coach paint, service, spiv, new tyres, and go racing, whatever the pace.

[Rudernst]

well, JR is right about relative prices of cars in Woodcote and pre war.
He proves me wrong up to a point.

I, for my money, have bought a Lorraine-Dietrich B3-6 to go pre war racing once in a while..... Good value in relation to what events You can get it into.....

Pre war racing is a bit of an aquired taste. My co driver is much quicker than me in single seaters but I have his measure in pre wars.

Safety plays a role as well, of course for some people, no roll bars no seat belts, high c of g.

Lets not grumble, lets get others interested......

Rudolf

[Mike Bell]

To me the Adler is beyond the 'patinated' stage and needs some restoration. As Joe says, no need to get it to concours, just looking tidy but naturally with all the mechanicals up to the rigours of racing. Not sure where it fits in, though- apart from LMC.

I think Kevin's point about a majority of people leaning toward cars of an age that they can relate to is true- certainly I started out that way. Luckily there are those with broader outlooks, but maybe the same discussion will be had in the future regarding 50's racers, then 60's?

You do hear comments from fellow drivers about lack of harness, roll cage etc on a lot of pre-war cars, and am sure that will put some off. For me it would be the purchase price- I am interested in pre-war, but for now as an observer and admirer!

[Al Weyman]

It would probably make a fair bit in scrap value, I hear aluminium prices are on the up.














Only kidding honest!

[john ruston]

Is that post supposed to add to the discussion or just funny?
Can't see it being either.

[john ruston]

It is normal to assume that people like the cars they remember when they were about 15.
As 99% of us who have Pre War cars are substantially younger than the cars it may be because they are different.
The thirties things drive well and can keep up with modern traffic.Any size person can fit a Loganda,Talbot,Alvis.Problem is with MG's,Altas,328's and stuff.
I don't get the Bentley thing as have had one and drive like a tractor.
May be reason why people increase capacities and change brakes,suspension and stuff.Could be ideal for people who like later Yank Tanks!

[Al Weyman]

Sorry John just a bit of an attempt at humour no offence old chap.

[john ruston]

It's probably at least 200k worth of metal and could be much more.Not sure its a good car but people buy history!Would it get an HTP?
No problem Al!

[John Turner]

In motor racing history terms, it is an important car being an early example of enclosed streamlining trend which started in the 1930's. They also apparently were front wheel drive. There were 3 of these cars started in the '37 Le Mans (with 1.7 litre engines, according to Hodges, not 1.5) and two finished 6th and 9th and one of those came back the following year to win the Biennial cup. In 1939, two Adler coupes started the race fitted with 1.5 engines. What I don't know is whether these are all the same cars re-engined (if the above car is a 1937 one, then presumably, yes) as contemporary pictures show different shaped radiator grills for each year. So, John, probably not in itself necessarily a good car, but definitely has it's place in history as an example of an innovative and successful Le Mans car.

[zefarelly]

The nice thing about pre war (I think) and the same goes, or went for 50's and some 60's cars is their usability, 8-10 years ago there where still people with road legal race cars that where competitive, now its all or nothing. I know we've had the discussion elsewhere already, but it strikes me you could jump in a Talbot in Cambridgeshire and drive it to LeMans, race it and drive home without the need of AA . . . . I'd amazed if many or any of the plateau 4 cars could do that, 2&3 perhaps

[SAMD]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Sorry John just a bit of an attempt at humour no offence old chap.

Dont worry Al, I thought it was funny

[john ruston]

Seems to have bought an end to the thread.
Racing will probably stop due to apathy shown in general .
Along with Legends note VSCC numbers are down this year.A few old cars and lots of specials.
Not a good sign
Still havn't seen an answer to why but long term it does not look good until someone rediscovers the class.

[Tim the Grey]

I suspect part of the declining numbers are due to cars being owned/run by an individual, or family, for nearly half a century. This gives it 'provenance', and 'history'.
Then it's sold as the next generation discover someone will pay a fortune for Dad's 'Old Bucket of Bolts'?

They can buy an E Type, or similar, and keep the change.

I have seen VSCC Seaman Trophy meetings where pretty much every ERA was present. Is that even possible today? Where are they? Museums? collections? Abroad?

I don't know, I just know I haven't seen more than about 3 in a race for the last 5 years...

[john ruston]

ERA's ,Many overseas and the owners and drivers are older .

[jamesholland]

As far as ERAs (and the like) are concerned the owners are privileged to be invited to so many events both here and abroad that they can/have to be very fussy about how many events they support so on that premise the halcyon days of the Seaman Trophy at Oulton Park will never be recreated. Add to that the cost of running a supercharged pre war racing car (particularly if you aren't an engineer) and you can see the problem.

However I don't think JR is referring to single seaters but rather sports cars. I think the problem here is as time goes by the cars appeal to a different type of owner other than someone who wants one simply to race, not to mention the plethora of categories available to those with the means to go racing - this can only become more acute as more categories of car become "historic" and drivers often migrate to other more recent cars. Apart from that the present economic situation cannot be helping as "investors" seem to parking their cash in hard assets such as the finest cars forcing prices up.

I would suggest that the various groups involved such as the VSCC, Legends etc pool resources but that would involve a great many changes and I doubt it would work for all parties. Having said that I think John Guyatt has done a fantastic job with the VSCC "Set 3" (standard and modified sportscars) races and he deserves support though I have noticed a downturn in numbers this year.