Hot rodders and drag racers -- Still ahead of everybody else?

[Franklin]

By the early fifties, hot rodders were going over 200 mph at Bonneville in rear-engine open wheel cars with the fuel tank located between the engine and the cockpit and the driver seated in a reclining position. Jocko Johnson's 1958 short-wheelbase rear-engine fully enclosed streamliner dragster was so far ahead of its time that the A.J. Foyt's Oldsmobile Aerotech (1987) and the 1988 Le Mans Peugeot closely resembled it. Five years before Jim Hall showed up at Le Mans with one, Art Arfons had already gone over 300 mph using a high-mounted self-adjusting wing.

[KC]

Top flight drag racing will always remain ahead of all other forms of motorsport of pure speed numbers except the LSR crowd.

No F1, CART, IRL, or sports car will ever cross the finish line at an NHRA National event faster than a top fuel rail or funny car. No NHRA, IHRA or FIA drag car will ever outrun a CART, F1, IRL, or sports car at Laguna Seca, LeMans, or Spa either. Horses for courses.

[Franklin]

So, KC, you find it too disturbing to acknowledge that years (or decades) before Formula One and other European road race constructors adopted them hot rodders were already using the very configurations that define today's "modern" racecars?

[Dino IV]

Can you provide some photographs (or links to sites with them), Franklin, because I am starting to get a bit curious about al these great hotrodders in the early fifties.

I wonder - coz I get the notion that you consider them to be the first engineering capacity in autosports - what you think of cars like the Auto Unions and the Mercedes Streamliners of the thirties?

Or even about the famous 'Platje' of my late fellow countryman Maus Gatsonides.

[TimD]

Is that the same Gatsonides who invented those blasted police speed cameras?

Harumph! Grumble, grouch, snarl....


BTW Franklin, although you seem sure in the knowledge that we are all blinkered and don't ever listen to your points, I should say that I have had occasion to check the web for photo references to some of these you keep referring to. That chappie with the stabilizing wings on his jet car, for an example. I didn't find any photo references to him, but it would have helped if I'd had the right spelling....

[Peter Mallett]

Originally posted by TimD
Is that the same Gatsonides who invented those blasted police speed cameras?

Harumph! Grumble, grouch, snarl....


BTW Franklin, although you seem sure in the knowledge that we are all blinkered and don't ever listen to your points, I should say that I have had occasion to check the web for photo references to some of these you keep referring to. That chappie with the stabilizing wings on his jet car, for an example. I didn't find any photo references to him, but it would have helped if I'd had the right spelling....

Er. Sorry Tim. What were you talking about?

[KC]

I don't find it disturbing at all Franklin. When Alfa Romeo produced te first overhead cam motor in the early 1900s, the pneumatic tire is probably close to 100 years old, and world's record for nitrous use was set by the German's on a WWII bomber, why should I be disturbed at admitting that a drag racer or hot rodder knows how to make a car go fast? I am an engineer and I love the engineering that goes on with any kind of race car. I cannot look at a machine without trying to figure out how it works and what the engineer and designer was thinking of when he penned it. There has been a lot of innovation in the last 100 years of motorsport. The hot rodders didn't invent it, neither did the latest crop of F1 and CART engineers. They use inventive methods to employ it. Most engineering these days is packaging and refinement. Rarely do you see someone invent a new device to make a car go faster. It is usually modifying or repackaging a current device into a more efficient design that gets more speed these days.

When you mention that years and decades before F1, in the 20s, 30s and 40s the majority of innovation came from racing, not hot rodding. Hot rodding was in its earliest stages of infancy just after WWII. It had less effect on automotive design than pure racing did. Several British LSR record attempts were made, the Auto Union and Mercedes juggernauts were at full effect in the 20s and 30s. Motor racing in America at that time was nothing like Europe had. America was more into flight then than racing autos. Indianpolis was the only really big deal going in motorsports. The Vanderbilt Cup trophy races was probably one of the only racing series.

An engineer is an engineer. Whether he is working on a lakester LSR machine or an F1 chassis, they are both srtill engineers. One may hold a number of degrees or have access to the latest supercomputers for modelling analysis, but both are doing essentially the same job. Creating the fastest and most reliable racer they can with the materials and budgets available. That is the true mission of an engineer.

[Franklin]

Where the hot rodders were ahead of pretty much everybody was integrating everything that defines modern racecar configurations into a unified package.

And by the way, Stu Hilborn was a hot rodder. It was Hilborn who, after deducing timed fuel injection didn't make sense, developed continuous flow fuel injection. After Hilborn proved his fuel injection system by going 150 mph with it at the dry lakes, Hilborn fuel injection went on to dominate the Indy 500 for the next several decades.

(For those who were interested in websites try http://www.roadsters.com, http://www.nitronic.com and http://www.jetwebb.com for a start)

[ma]

Again, Frank :

Woop tee do about hot rodders. They only have to design to very narrow parameters, and usually have years to think about it. When there are no restrictions on design, it's easy to get creative. The true mark of genius is coming up with innovations when you have to work against a strict set of rules. Very few, if any, of your hot rodders are or were in that category. As a test, have them design a COMPETITIVE CART or IRL or F1 car - it would be a joke ! I doubt most of them could design a competitive Formula Ford ! ( Which is actually a lot harder than you'd think !)

Please go away !

[Franklin]

"Please go away!" (Ignorant doofuses).

It's easy for CART or F1 constructors to look like geniuses when they have millions or tens of millions of dollars to throw at a problem.

Donald Campbell's Bluebird cost $3,000,000 in 1960 dollars. Its record? 403.1 mph. The Summers brothers Goldenrod cost $100,000. Its record? 409.2 mph.

[ma]

No Frank - it's genius when it has to be done against a very short time frame. In the case of most top level road racing, that time frame is only 3-4 months, and many times to new, more restrictive rules. The amount of money spent only allows it to be done correctly in that time frame. Give a real engineer/fabricator the incentive, and he could build a 500 MPH car in about 5 years part time for less than $100k.

But again : WHY ??????????????????????????????

[Franklin]

"Give a real engineer/fabricator the incentive, and he could build a 500 MPH car in about 5 years part time for less than $100k."

Well, you sort of got it right, MA. Art Arfons built in ONE YEAR a 500 mph car for about $10,000.

[ma]

Using a jet engine does make it kinda easy, doesn't it !!!

But again: WHO CARES ????????????????????

[Dino IV]

I fully agree with KC on this one I have to admit.
Thanks for the sites, Franklin, paid them a visit and most of the sites they linked to.
Can't say it's about the autosport where it's engineering was invented. KC was right about that one.
Arfons exceptions being the overhead rollcage (well you dont wanna hurt your head now do you? Aerodynamically a dog btw) and the use of parachutes for braking (good one).

But for the rest, Franklin?
Where's all the engineering hallelujah?
The only thing they do is power up big blocks and put four wheels to a jet engine.
All the real automotive innovations that matter aint coming from hot rodders or drag racers. Not in the past, not now and not in the future.

[THR]

y do u lot bother to talk to franklin?
he has NO idea of race car design!

just things that have wheels and an engine!

cant we ban him?

[ma]

THR:

It's just too much fun watching Frank sputter and spew forth when no one here bows down to his gods. He just doesn't get it !

[KC]

Franklin, you have fallen victim to the old fallacy about cheap racing. No racing is cheap. Just ask any of the racers on this forum if their car is cheap to race and maintain. Some are just cheaper than others. You site the fact that Don Campbell only spent $3 million to break his LS record. Do you think he would have spent $10 million if he had it? Of course he would have. He only spent $3 million because it was all he could raise. Every professional racing team does the exact same thing. I think AJ Foyt said it the best during his first season in the IRL. He was asked how much money he was saving by changing from CART to the IRL. His reply: None. He had the same exact budget as the year before from Copenhagen, he just used it to buy more spares and more track time.

Now, as far as return on money spent, $3 million will get you a more than just a few passes at Bonneville in the CART or IRL series. I would hazard that a few of the IRL teams are getting by with just $3 million for the entire season. Also, $3 million will get you a decent car ready for Indy as well. Most likely not a front runner, but more than just a few times down the straight.

[Franklin]

KC,

That was not $3,000,000 in year 2000 dollars.

That was $3,000,000 in year 1960 dollars. It included the involvement of scores of British companies. It included extensive wind tunnel testing. It included a 4,500 horsepower gas turbine custom modified by the manufacturer to include a driveshaft at both ends. It included scratch-built custom-designed gearboxes and driveshafts for handling that 4,500 horsepower. It included scratch-built custom-designed wheels and tires as well as scratch-built custom-designed disk brake system for stopping an 8,000 pound car from 400+ mph on brakes alone.

Aside from the $3,000,000 spent building the car, Campbell's budget also included a support crew at Bonneville with dozens of people and dozens of support vehicles including a mobile machine shop.