[WEC] LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules - now hypercar rules)

[GasperG]

I was surprised to see the latest regulations with lihgtly higher fuel flow numbers, IMO this is the first thing that we will see lower after (maybe before?) LeMans corrected numbers.
Hybrid power will stay, as long we are talking of such low numbers of energy.

I think that with lower fuel flow Porsche would loose more than Toyota.

[Pandemonium]

They should start by giving them MORE POWER!!!!. That will make the slower. No making this cars slower please, seriously. They are perfect. The excitement about guessing the Le Mans qualifying lap time :P

[chernaudi]

Article on cost cutting measures proposed to LMP1 teams by the ACO/FIA:

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/m...tion-measures/

In principal I agree, but I don't think a lot of this stuff will work in practice. It'll just give Audi, Porsche, Toyota and Nissan more money to spend elsewhere on their programs, and not necessarily save them money nor be of much help to private teams who want to enter LMP1 in future years.

And of course, one just has to look at F1 and NASCAR to see what a fiasco their cost cutting measures are as far as saving teams any significant amount of money and how it tightens the field.

Only way to save money is get rid of a lot of the tech and such, but the manufacturer teams won't go for that, nor will the ACO and FIA with the green initiatives.

[chernaudi]

And to add, ironically, a lot of this IMO is the ACO's fault.

The reason why I say that is back about 15 years ago, when LMP900/675 was introduced, we had a stable, sane rules package that ran for 5 years. When the first generation of tunnel diffuser LMP1/2 cars started to filter in in 2004, again, we ended up with a relatively stable basic rules package. When you have stable rules that you know will be on the books for a while without major changes, you have inbred sustainability.

But since 2009, the ACO have let things get out of control, IMO, and it's because of their constant tinkering with the rules, and it's not always relatively minor stuff.

In '09, came the switch from the 2000mm rear wings to the 1600mm rear wings. That was a lot of money that teams had to spend to fix their cars to those regs. In 2010, came the rear fender louvers and other changes, 2011, the engine downsizing was introduced, 2014, the LMP1 "Group C" regs with narrower cars, narrower tires, and fuel flow BOP vs air restrictor BOP which had been used for the prior 20 years.

These costs increases have added up astronomically in a short period of time. You can't blame Audi, Porsche, and even Toyota for the money that they've spent--they're trying to win races and championships. But you can blame the ACO for going from 10 years of fairly stable, sane rules, to the past 6 or 7 years of rule change after rule change, being pulled out of the ACO's technical committee's and sporting committee's collective butts, often for seeming no good reason.

Now it's gotten to the point where the ACO have to "punish" factory teams by introducing spending caps by limiting testing, engine usage, tire usage, and possibly things like wind tunnel and stuff like that, like the FIA had to do with F1.

If the ACO really wanna save the teams some serious bucks, either turn the technology clock back about 10-20 years, or make a set of rules, and have them run for more than 3 years before a formulae change, and don't have a ton of rules changes, and if so, find cheaper ways to implement them.

[Rcz]

This always happens, ugly up the cars, the elimination of variety, appeasing a small group of loudmouths, improving the show, ect.

In the name of cost reductions, which will really never happen.

F1, Indy, Grand am, NASCAR.





It always happens. In every series. It never stops.

[TF110]

They dont use 50 days of testing. Windtunnel restrictions would just lead to them actually testing more and using all the test days. 5 engines per year is already being done. And tire restrictions means double stinting. Not seeing how this makes things worse.

[chernaudi]

What I don't like is that it's in the means of "cost cutting", when all that'll happen is that the teams with the big budgets will just spend it on something else.

Happened and happens in F1, NASCAR, etc. I don't think that the WEC will be any different.

[PascaLM]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

And to add, ironically, a lot of this IMO is the ACO's fault.
...
But since 2009, the ACO have let things get out of control, IMO, and it's because of their constant tinkering with the rules, and it's not always relatively minor stuff.
...
These costs increases have added up astronomically in a short period of time. ...

There are two different approaches : costs limitation and safety increasing.
The rules had changed during the period you mentioned in order to avoid take-offs (Tréluyer, Gené at Le Mans, Ortelli at Monza). Unfortunately, it doesn't work every time (Davidson at Mulsanne).
In my opinion the best way to improve safety in curves is to narrow the tires and/or enlarge the gravel traps. Fillon said tonight on MotorsTV that the main way to decrease performances would be to limit the consumption per lap.

[Matt]

Those safety improvements really weren't that expensive for open top cars.

Add a straight billboard of a certain width to the engine cover, and take a saw to the nose and engine cover above the wheels.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by FxL

The last sentence is interesting (" The only practical measure the ACO / FIA could apply would be an increase of the minimum weight"). Slowing the cars down by changing the fuel flow rate or eletrical power indeed doesn't seem to be that easy and fair, given the different concepts of the manufacturers.

If you reduce the fuel allocation, they have to back off on the power. The hybrid power doesn't come from nothing. It's really just re-used energy that originally came from the fuel. Fuel allocation and fuel flow are a little different things. You could leave peak fuel flow where it is and just reduce the allocation. That leads to fans complaining about "fuel economy runs", but with the small sort of adjustment needed to meet the lap time target, it would not be very noticeable.

The spaces in the rules for teams to try different things is a key part of why WEC is doing so well currently. Prescriptive rules aren't the way to go. Hopefully they will stick with the approach that is working so well currently.

[Deleted]

These are a bit late as I only now relocated the FIA committee files after their site revamp and getting things up and running again, but P1 fuel restrictors for petrol & diesel and P1 privateer changes that were in effect for R1

http://www.fia.com/file/26599/download?token=3ldT-hou
http://www.fia.com/file/26629/download?token=jnpYvcjb

Petrol redheads automatically receive additional +0,35mm for Le Mans and possibly some other tracks

[CTD]

With the heavy revising of the LMP2 Regulations, could ACO/FIA have something like this in mind?:

Take the current P2's, give them a few breaks to up their pace, and let them be LMP1-L's.
Then reduce the pace of the new stock engine and P2 chassis.
Peg the Hybrid LMP's further back (something we know will happen) so they are very close to the up-paced P2's.
Slow down the GTE's some there the performance gap between GTE and LMP2 continues to exist.

That way you would get the LMP1-H closer to the wished 3:30 limit.
You would get a huge boost in private LMP1's
LMP2 will be restarted as the "cheap" Prototype at Le Mans.

I know a lot of people against the ideal lap time of 3:30 at Le Mans, but is it really that bad an idea, as long as it is done properly?

Let's be honest, is the racing better with cars all doing 3:20, instead of 3:30's?
If ACO/FIA choses to lower the amount of available energy fuel for Hybrids, this will force the manufactures to slow down, or invent even more efficient hybrid systems (which would be make LMPs more road relevant).

So what I hope is going to happen with the future LMP regulations is:

LMP1-H fuel allowances will be reduced to get closer to the 3:30 ideal lap time.
Current LMP2's will be given a few performance increases and upgraded to be LMP1-L.
The new Stock engined LMP2's will be slowed down relative to keep the performance gap to LMP1-L.
GTE will be will be slowed down relative to keep the performance gap to the new LMP2's.

All classes should see a boost in teams.
More road relevant technology will be invented, making LMP1-H more interesting for Automotive manufactures.
The racing will remain close and exciting, although slower because of better fuel milage.

[Bob Baldwin]

I suppose in this day and age Anything is Possible

[ger80]

F1 did some rule clarification regarding the fuel pressure between the fuel flow sensors. It's needs to be constant now to ensure teams don't harvest fuel between the two. Will the same apply for LMP1?

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by CTD

With the heavy revising of the LMP2 Regulations, could ACO/FIA have something like this in mind?:

Take the current P2's, give them a few breaks to up their pace, and let them be LMP1-L's.
Then reduce the pace of the new stock engine and P2 chassis.
Peg the Hybrid LMP's further back (something we know will happen) so they are very close to the up-paced P2's.
Slow down the GTE's some there the performance gap between GTE and LMP2 continues to exist.

That way you would get the LMP1-H closer to the wished 3:30 limit.
You would get a huge boost in private LMP1's
LMP2 will be restarted as the "cheap" Prototype at Le Mans.

I know a lot of people against the ideal lap time of 3:30 at Le Mans, but is it really that bad an idea, as long as it is done properly?

Let's be honest, is the racing better with cars all doing 3:20, instead of 3:30's?
If ACO/FIA choses to lower the amount of available energy fuel for Hybrids, this will force the manufactures to slow down, or invent even more efficient hybrid systems (which would be make LMPs more road relevant).

So what I hope is going to happen with the future LMP regulations is:

LMP1-H fuel allowances will be reduced to get closer to the 3:30 ideal lap time.
Current LMP2's will be given a few performance increases and upgraded to be LMP1-L.
The new Stock engined LMP2's will be slowed down relative to keep the performance gap to LMP1-L.
GTE will be will be slowed down relative to keep the performance gap to the new LMP2's.

All classes should see a boost in teams.
More road relevant technology will be invented, making LMP1-H more interesting for Automotive manufactures.
The racing will remain close and exciting, although slower because of better fuel milage.

I could not agree less with you, but to be frank I simply don't have the energy to argue this evening. Perhaps tomorrow .

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

I could not agree less with you, but to be frank I simply don't have the energy to argue this evening. Perhaps tomorrow .

Why not wait with that post for tomorrow then .

But I will welcome a discussion tomorrow, and let's keep it away from arguing and have a debate of opinions instead.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by ger80

F1 did some rule clarification regarding the fuel pressure between the fuel flow sensors. It's needs to be constant now to ensure teams don't harvest fuel between the two. Will the same apply for LMP1?

They were going above the fuel flow limit and gaining power for periods of time with a trick in the fuel lines iirc. I too wonder if lmp1 teams are tricking the sensors like f1 teams.

[carbon_titanium]

Originally Posted by TF110

They were going above the fuel flow limit and gaining power for periods of time with a trick in the fuel lines iirc. I too wonder if lmp1 teams are tricking the sensors like f1 teams.

surely they did, but won't gain the same power of a F1 being LMP1-H fuel flow more restrictive

[cokata]

Originally Posted by CTD

With the heavy revising of the LMP2 Regulations, could ACO/FIA have something like this in mind?:

Take the current P2's, give them a few breaks to up their pace, and let them be LMP1-L's.
Then reduce the pace of the new stock engine and P2 chassis.
Peg the Hybrid LMP's further back (something we know will happen) so they are very close to the up-paced P2's.
Slow down the GTE's some there the performance gap between GTE and LMP2 continues to exist.

That way you would get the LMP1-H closer to the wished 3:30 limit.
You would get a huge boost in private LMP1's
LMP2 will be restarted as the "cheap" Prototype at Le Mans.

I know a lot of people against the ideal lap time of 3:30 at Le Mans, but is it really that bad an idea, as long as it is done properly?

Let's be honest, is the racing better with cars all doing 3:20, instead of 3:30's?
If ACO/FIA choses to lower the amount of available energy fuel for Hybrids, this will force the manufactures to slow down, or invent even more efficient hybrid systems (which would be make LMPs more road relevant).

So what I hope is going to happen with the future LMP regulations is:

LMP1-H fuel allowances will be reduced to get closer to the 3:30 ideal lap time.
Current LMP2's will be given a few performance increases and upgraded to be LMP1-L.
The new Stock engined LMP2's will be slowed down relative to keep the performance gap to LMP1-L.
GTE will be will be slowed down relative to keep the performance gap to the new LMP2's.

All classes should see a boost in teams.
More road relevant technology will be invented, making LMP1-H more interesting for Automotive manufactures.
The racing will remain close and exciting, although slower because of better fuel milage.

Yes it is.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by cokata

Yes it is.

Why?, please elaborate, otherwise your comment is simply pointless.

[cokata]

Originally Posted by CTD

Why?, please elaborate, otherwise your comment is simply pointless.

The cars that were doing around 3:30 (2011-2013) were too slow in a straight line. All the high profile crashes happened in that period and it was simply down to the fact that the cars were unremarkable in a straight line.

Now the other way to slow them down would be keep the current straight line performance, bet make them as quick as a Bykolles in the curves.

I would give you the most extreme example why the speed of the cars matters. Just watch a Formula E race if you haven't. Don't know for you but for me it looks like the cars are barely moving and it's hard to get excited by a car that is doing such pedestrian speeds.

And this year for me atleast the cars are so much faster that i don't need to see the stopwatch to confirm that they are quicker, the difference is huge and can be seen with the naked eye.

[TF110]

If theyre speeding up lmp2 and GTE, slowing the lmp1's by much would be unwise.

[Damian Baldi]

Originally Posted by CTD

With the heavy revising of the LMP2 Regulations, could ACO/FIA have something like this in mind?:

Take the current P2's, give them a few breaks to up their pace, and let them be LMP1-L's.
Then reduce the pace of the new stock engine and P2 chassis.
Peg the Hybrid LMP's further back (something we know will happen) so they are very close to the up-paced P2's.
Slow down the GTE's some there the performance gap between GTE and LMP2 continues to exist.

That way you would get the LMP1-H closer to the wished 3:30 limit.
You would get a huge boost in private LMP1's
LMP2 will be restarted as the "cheap" Prototype at Le Mans.

I know a lot of people against the ideal lap time of 3:30 at Le Mans, but is it really that bad an idea, as long as it is done properly?

Let's be honest, is the racing better with cars all doing 3:20, instead of 3:30's?
If ACO/FIA choses to lower the amount of available energy fuel for Hybrids, this will force the manufactures to slow down, or invent even more efficient hybrid systems (which would be make LMPs more road relevant).

So what I hope is going to happen with the future LMP regulations is:

LMP1-H fuel allowances will be reduced to get closer to the 3:30 ideal lap time.
Current LMP2's will be given a few performance increases and upgraded to be LMP1-L.
The new Stock engined LMP2's will be slowed down relative to keep the performance gap to LMP1-L.
GTE will be will be slowed down relative to keep the performance gap to the new LMP2's.

All classes should see a boost in teams.
More road relevant technology will be invented, making LMP1-H more interesting for Automotive manufactures.
The racing will remain close and exciting, although slower because of better fuel milage.

P1-H and P1-L could never compete each other. They couldn't in the past against the diesels, less now against the hybrids. Let them compete each other into their respective subclass. If you want to slow down the hybrids cutting their fuel fluid, and amount of energy storage capacity, plus letting privateers use more fuel, at the end, the hybrids will get better tire's performance, so there is no case in try to make both subclasses compete. You could make them be closer, but not compete.

About the P2, I hope the new spec engine could be a bit more powerful to allow the P2 to put the GTs behind easily, and avoid to get stuck behind them.

I hope some team from the current P2 go to P1-L in the future, at least two teams with different engines.

Let the GTs as they are now. I think we have already excellent competition in all classes.

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by FxL

The last sentence is interesting (" The only practical measure the ACO / FIA could apply would be an increase of the minimum weight"). Slowing the cars down by changing the fuel flow rate or eletrical power indeed doesn't seem to be that easy and fair, given the different concepts of the manufacturers.

Yes i think *more weight* is the only orthogonal measure to all concepts, except that it will be a little less sensitive on the more torque prone engines... wonder if the cry wolf starts if Audi would start winning in a row...

Reducing fuel flows but augmenting the electric outputs (9 MJ top, 1MJ more for every class) could counter balance each other... and with it the weight sensitivity, because only a rocket engine can beat an electric motor at torque.

So more weight for larger hybrid systems but less fuel, seems to fit together naturally without slowing the cars that much (for a year 2 at most, then it could be quicker again)... and that is the only way i can think on the 'efficiency approach'... reducing hybrid power by itself alone means reducing what is wasted, and so clearly contrary to the (supposed) 'efficiency spirit' of the rules.

But i think in those days(very soon) the ethics will start to go down the drain (the hell with 'spirits') and the battle of interests will start to be intense... just hope FIA/ACO will manage to keep the discipline out of obvious pesky politics(a F)

[so far is mild achievement... not a very negative note, perhaps an even(a D)... attending everybody was tired of Audi always winning-> ppl forgot that engine is far from the only factor (more and more less decisive as more and more hybrid power augments), and there will always be faster teams than others on seemingly 'equal' equipment... even on seemingly equal budgets].

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by TF110

They were going above the fuel flow limit and gaining power for periods of time with a trick in the fuel lines iirc. I too wonder if lmp1 teams are tricking the sensors like f1 teams.

An example of stupid ruling... there are ways to very accurately measure flows passing a certain point, that is what matters, there will always be clever ppl doing clever things even loopholing the rules if the rules try to be restrictively fascist (sorry can't find better word)...

why does it matter what exact amount of fuel goes inside an engine art every moment, 'the thing' is already absurdly variable, for sure at 2 to 4000 RPM the exact amount of fuel that goes inside the engine is not the same at 5 to 8000RPM... and an engine is prone to catch22s, go efficiency at lower revs and lose some at higher revs and vice-versa, i can't see what is the problem if you are a little more efficient at lower revs to reserve a little something to expend at higher revs... only a sick totalitarian kind of mind (psycos)would think they can regulate exactly equal in fairness what is highly variable and depending on an enormous amount of factors