Interesting Item on New Chassis in Indy Star (Merged)

[Tim Northcutt]

Check out this bit of news...

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http://www.indystar.com/article/2009...ylvania-tunnel

Apparently the radical chassis design is from Ben Bowlby, formerly Lola's chief designer and now part of Ganassi. It looks like a cross between a sports car and a motorcycle and is sleek and new age.

Ganassi, Michael Andretti, and Tony George at least are all pushing for this design.

Dallara is the other chassis being considered and would be an evolution of the existing design.

Here's some interesting stuff thoughts from Bowlby in Racecar Engineering about what he'd want a new car to be. Sounds like it'd be lightweight, fuel efficient, and with many areas on the car to tweak.

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/a...polis-500.html

[JagtechOhio]

I read all this last night, and it left me feeling a little duped.

Ganassi and Penske get TEAM money, right? They both have enough money to pay engineering staffs and finance research facilities to maintain 7 year old spec cars, while hundreds of mechanics are out of work because the little teams can't afford to race.

So Bowlby is making six figures on a team that has an eight figure annual operating budget, and he wants to get paid by IRL to draw a concept car. Oh, OK. And a Series that is afraid to introduce any regulation changes because of the economic impact is instead going to do a total redesign, requiring a complete refitting by all teams and rendering their existing investment obsolete. Yeah, I get that too.

In the meantime, fans get most of their news from one guy who writes whatever the key players tell him to write. No wonder it's hard to figure out what is going on with IndyCar.

On one hand, we might not be watching 20 old tubs racing run their first race of the season because the funding couldn't be generated. On the other, there will be a fleet of shiny new lunar rovers on the grid in two years.

I suppose the truth lies somewhere in between the two extremes. Or there isn't any truth coming from these people at all.

[Tim Northcutt]

TEAM Money replaced paying out purses so that the smaller teams would get a more consistent cut for racing.
Little fish got about $30,000 for racing in the back under the old system.

Now they get an average of about $65,000 a race, not including the 500.

A typical winner's purse was somewhere between $110,000 and $150,000 per race (excluding Indy) prior to TEAM, so just with their wins, not to mention higher placed finishes, how much more do you think they would have gotten than their $1.2 million as part of TEAM?

I say if the IRL is intersted, they should commission a design and put some money where there mouth is...

Why should Ganassi do it for free if there is no commitment to interest via cash from the IRL in the potential chassis design?

[JagtechOhio]

Oh, thanks. It all makes perfect sense now.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

Why should Ganassi do it for free if there is no commitment to interest via cash from the IRL in the potential chassis design?

I don't know if ganassi would be the main money man behind that because there are others that rent that laurel hill tunnel out and those that do like to keep quiet about it. So there is probably more to the story than what is written.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

TEAM Money replaced paying out purses so that the smaller teams would get a more consistent cut for racing.
Little fish got about $30,000 for racing in the back under the old system.

Now they get an average of about $65,000 a race, not including the 500.

A typical winner's purse was somewhere between $110,000 and $150,000 per race (excluding Indy) prior to TEAM, so just with their wins, not to mention higher placed finishes, how much more do you think they would have gotten than their $1.2 million as part of TEAM?

I say if the IRL is intersted, they should commission a design and put some money where there mouth is...

Why should Ganassi do it for free if there is no commitment to interest via cash from the IRL in the potential chassis design?

Like the old champcar and CART programs all the TEAM program does is reward mediocrity.

It might be going bye bye anyways:

http://www.ibj.com/the-score/2009/11...AMS/post/11252

Sounds like Belskus is a hatchet man getting the company lean and mean ready for sale.

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Like the old champcar and CART programs all the TEAM program does is reward mediocrity.

It might be going bye bye anyways:

http://www.ibj.com/the-score/2009/11...AMS/post/11252

Sounds like Belskus is a hatchet man getting the company lean and mean ready for sale.

They're outsourcing jobs that were in-house for years and frankly, bloated the staff.

Schoettle is blowing smoke rings out his butt on some of the other stuff, like dumping the Brickyard 400...even with 170,000 people in the stands (last year's attendance), they still made money off of it.

While you're at it, care to comment on the IZOD Title Sponsorship, which is a 6-year deal worth between $10-15 million per year with an option to extend two years?

I noticed you've been kinda quiet on that one...

[JagtechOhio]

I didn't say anything about Ganassi paying to design a new car.

If this Bowlby dude is an ex-Lola designer on Ganassi's payroll, he's a rich guy with not much to do and access to tools to design whatever he wants. So he can pull a Bill Gates, build some three wheeler in his boss' tunnel and sell it to IRL. He can also get Curt Cavin to write "news" about him if he needs to attract investors.

How a new V6 turbo is going to fit in a three wheeler is his problem.

Izod sells clothes, not IndyCars. They spent a ton of money last year on advertising and "activations", a whole lot more than anyone ever heard of or paid attention to. So next year they will spend a few million more, and throw some chump change at the teams on top of that. That will sell a lot more rags and attract a few more fans.

If they were putting a large amount of their investment towards the ICS, Reay would already have a new seat poured. They're clothiers with a large marketing budget, period. It they don't see big ROI they'll walk post haste.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

They're outsourcing jobs that were in-house for years and frankly, bloated the staff.

Schoettle is blowing smoke rings out his butt on some of the other stuff, like dumping the Brickyard 400...even with 170,000 people in the stands (last year's attendance), they still made money off of it.

While you're at it, care to comment on the IZOD Title Sponsorship, which is a 6-year deal worth between $10-15 million per year with an option to extend two years?

I noticed you've been kinda quiet on that one...

No haven't devoted much time lately to writing as I've been busy elsewhere.

I think it's great for them if they have that deal in place and the money comes in. How much will actually make it to the teams and make a different to them I suspect not a lot.

Most of it also is around $6-$7 million of tv commercials of which I'm sure goes to Versus or ABC and not to the irl themselves.

Of all I have seen and heard it sounds like big numbers but most of it when you break it down is fluff that I don't see as making a big $$ to most involved.

In regards to the job cuts and other events at the speedway, I'm sure for one thing there was a lot of dead weight and tony george frumpies hanging about so hopefully they keep the shop vac running to clean all that out.

I was always surprised when they built the F1 track they didn't set it up so it could be used on a daily basis for track days, schools, manufacturer events, testing, club days, etc. Seems like they are leaving potential daily revenue on the table, especially considering all the people they employ to run the place.

I never bought into the "aura" of the track that it needs only be used for the 500. It's an old track with history but no reason why you can't maximize the use of the place.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

Check out this bit of news...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


http://www.indystar.com/article/2009...ylvania-tunnel

Apparently the radical chassis design is from Ben Bowlby, formerly Lola's chief designer and now part of Ganassi. It looks like a cross between a sports car and a motorcycle and is sleek and new age.

Ganassi, Michael Andretti, and Tony George at least are all pushing for this design.

Dallara is the other chassis being considered and would be an evolution of the existing design.

Here's some interesting stuff thoughts from Bowlby in Racecar Engineering about what he'd want a new car to be. Sounds like it'd be lightweight, fuel efficient, and with many areas on the car to tweak.

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/a...polis-500.html

I've read elsewhere about Bowlby's ideas, particularly about drag/fuel efficiency and current aerodynamic thinking. I'd like to see what this new car looks like.

As for Dallara, I saw some prospective pics of a Dallara with a turbo engine in it and it looked very much like the current car without an air box; rather Reynardesque.

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I saw some prospective pics of a Dallara with a turbo engine in it and it looked very much like the current car without an air box; rather Reynardesque.

By air box you mean the body piece above the engine and behind the roll hoop? It should be compulsory in every formula car. When a car flips and lands, it protects the driver's head much better that a thin roll hoop.

[bjohnsonsmith]

That's the air box and helps force air in to the cars cylinders. It's removable and allows access to the engine, particularly the spark plugs and rocker covers. The roll hoop's compulsory but there's no air box mounted above the engine on an F3 car, it's at the left hand side.

Indy Cars during the CART era needed no air box as engine aspiration is provided by the turbo charger. In F1 they were banned from 1975 to 1989, partly because they got too big and dangerous if there was a crash and in the early 80s because of the turbo era, they were not needed.

[NaBUru38]

That's it, I thought so. Thanks for the explanation.

[bjohnsonsmith]

No problem. An interesting device is the air box. It first appeared in 1971 and was notably used by the Tyrrell and March teams. By 1975 they got ridiculously big, check out the Ligier JS 5, if that car had been in a serious crash, who knows what would have happened.

One problem with the air box is drag, so Red Bull and Renault and Toyota added a fin that extended to the rear wing.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

An interesting device is the air box. It first appeared in 1971 and was notably used by the Tyrrell and March teams. By 1975 they got ridiculously big, check out the Ligier JS 5, if that car had been in a serious crash, who knows what would have happened.

My all time favorite for design excess. I posted a picture of it on another forum and somebody called it the "Smurf car". It's just bodywork, though. I don't see any reason there would be crash issues. The stuff inside was just like what the other teams were running. An airbox connected to trumpets.

[climb]

That's what I could learn from a friend of mine who lives not far from Ganassi's HQ:

1)TG is upset with the current IRL leadership
2)They've put him out, yet he's still an important stockholder
3) Therefore he wants to get even
4) That's why he considered seriously a proposal coming from Ganassi, who's having a strong redundancy on staff and machinery from his Nascar outfit
5) They have secretely contacted the team owners promising a new cheaper chassis: some of them welcomed the perspective, some didn't
6) Unfortunately their project ( a formerly 3 wheel triangle car, then transformed in a 4 wheel one, but still with a very narrow forward track) has been considered a cr@p by Honda, cos of its high unsafety
7) Nonetheless they are still concurring, given TG's role in the Hulman family
8) The only credible alternative seems to be dallara who have probably already submitted a different project.


IRL have taken time to take a decision, and they have quite much, since the new car is scheduled to start in 2012

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by climb

That's what I could learn from a friend of mine who lives not far from Ganassi's HQ:

1)TG is upset with the current IRL leadership
2)They've put him out, yet he's still an important stockholder
3) Therefore he wants to get even
4) That's why he considered seriously a proposal coming from Ganassi, who's having a strong redundancy on staff and machinery from his Nascar outfit
5) They have secretely contacted the team owners promising a new cheaper chassis: some of them welcomed the perspective, some didn't
6) Unfortunately their project ( a formerly 3 wheel triangle car, then transformed in a 4 wheel one, but still with a very narrow forward track) has been considered a cr@p by Honda, cos of its high unsafety
7) Nonetheless they are still concurring, given TG's role in the Hulman family
8) The only credible alternative seems to be dallara who have probably already submitted a different project.


IRL have taken time to take a decision, and they have quite much, since the new car is scheduled to start in 2012

Whether any, part or none of that is true, at the end of the day for 15 years tony george had his say and look where we are now. Not even in the toilet but down in the sewer. Anyone that would listen to him would have to be crazy. Even his most fervent supporters would have to admit that he had the time and money to do what he want, it didn't work and it was time for a change.

Another split in the sport? I think tony george has blown his wad though and all the money is gone, plus he doesn't have control of the speedway anymore.

[JagtechOhio]

I read this from a twitter of a guy who painted the floor at the secret tunnel:
http://www.speedtv.com/forums/viewthread/477366/

[climb]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

... I think tony george has blown his wad though and all the money is gone, plus he doesn't have control of the speedway anymore.

right point, but I think you're underrating his current/potential influence

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by climb

right point, but I think you're underrating his current/potential influence

I don't think he has a leg to stand on anymore. They did the tony experiment for 15 years to disastrous effect. The money is gone.

[climb]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

I don't think he has a leg to stand on anymore. They did the tony experiment for 15 years to disastrous effect. The money is gone.

once again good point but I still think you're a bit too optimist.

the fact that one thing is good doesn't necessarly mean it will happen

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Whether any, part or none of that is true, at the end of the day for 15 years tony george had his say and look where we are now. Not even in the toilet but down in the sewer. Anyone that would listen to him would have to be crazy. Even his most fervent supporters would have to admit that he had the time and money to do what he want, it didn't work and it was time for a change.

Interestingly, this could equally be applied to Bernie Ecclestone. The current agreement in F1 runs out in 2012, people are fed up with Ecclestone's constant interference, over the last few years and want change.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Interestingly, this could equally be applied to Bernie Ecclestone. The current agreement in F1 runs out in 2012, people are fed up with Ecclestone's constant interference, over the last few years and want change.

Change, at some point, is good, whether politics, motorsport, jobs, what you have for lunch, etc.

I was reading today in the latest issue of Motorsport a column from N. Roebuck about how F1 has stagnated with all the long time regulars and how all the absolute power AND money has been corrupting.

I see the same with the speedway and the irl, time for change. You have to give credit to the hulman clan for "saving" the speedway in 1945, but it's been the same groupthink for 65 years. Time for new ideas and new people and especially considering the deplorable condition of the irl, it needs to be on a radical scale.

Nascar I think sensed that potential stagnation in the 1990's so they started opening up the upper management and markets and ideas. Granted I think they've turned it into too much of a circus, but then again it's probably time for an adjustment and change again.

[climb]

Potential buyers? John Menard was one of them, but he probably didn't appreciate TG's secret manoeuvres, about whom John kept totally unaware

[bjohnsonsmith]

I agree, change is good and I don't think anyone is calling for a revolution but what is interesting is how similar is/was TG's agenda to Bernie's - My way or the Highway, If you don't like it lump it, and in Bernie's case threatening the British GP.