[WEC] Rebellion Racing

[bentley speed 8]

This was their most reliable run in a long time.

[Mikelancs]

Seems they got Third overall now anyway due to the Audi exclusion!

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[Deleted]

Good start. Shame they didn't get on the "actual" podium, as Quick-Nick states too, but it's in the record books anyway after the exclusion. And, perhaps the curtain raiser for podium at LM

The gap to LMP2 wasn't that great again but they probably could've pulled another lap difference had both not started last, and stuck behind the CLM in the opening stages. In any case I'm impressed that the #13 managed to stay ahead of #12.

With the factory mishaps and the apparent lack of problems with AER, it's looking very promising for Le Mans! Bring it on!

[Hawkwood]

Originally Posted by Chiana

In any case I'm impressed that the #13 managed to stay ahead of #12.

I'll be honest I'm actually a little surprised by that.
With Imperatori and Piquet coming through the traffic I wasn't expecting Piquet to close up much, but I did sort of expect the Brazilian to catch up once both were clear of traffic.
But no, lap on lap the young Swiss steadily pulled away.

Piquet's a very experienced racing driver, in all sorts of vehicles, but Imperatori has more prototype experience.
Not sure if that experience counted on Sunday, or whether the #12 had issues while Piquet was driving?

[Deleted]

Not sure, but the #12 did pit one more time than the #13, and one of those stops was also very slow

[Artur]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfoFjl_WKzQ

[Deleted]

Would've been nice if it was from Nick's or someone others view, as Piquet was still seemingly learning the car at that point of the FP, with others flashing by and him oversteering in corners.

[carbon_titanium]

very interesting video!
in 2014 I believed that AER engine was a big huge torque release dyno, according to some rumors speculating that the engine was a 4L twin turbo... then when last year was confirmed that the real displacement was just 2.4L, I started to suspect that actually it could be the exact reverse! a mid-high rev engine like the porsche 2L V4. This video confirms it at all, revving close to 8000rpm.

According to onboard telemetry, the new 2.4 turbo of TS050 revs close to 8000rpm too

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by carbon_titanium

very interesting video!
in 2014 I believed that AER engine was a big huge torque release dyno, according to some rumors speculating that the engine was a 4L twin turbo... then when last year was confirmed that the real displacement was just 2.4L, I started to suspect that actually it could be the exact reverse! a mid-high rev engine like the porsche 2L V4. This video confirms it at all, revving close to 8000rpm.

They did sound quite high-pitched for a turbo V6 at Le Mans last year. Guess that explains it.

[carbon_titanium]

yeah, actually the real displacement was revealed during the le mans eurosport coverage... as far I know AER never confirmed that.
Anyway I really don't understand this turbo high rev approach... if you are going to project a turbo engine, why don't you build a very large motor to make it release tons of torque while revving as low as possible? (like a turbodiesel basically)

[Victor_RO]

First I heard of the 2.4 liter figure was someone on Radio Le Mans, and I think Sam Collins confirmed it to us at the TenTenths meetup before the race as well.

[Mike E]

IIRC the info only came out during LM scrutineering.

The mountain that LMP1-P has to climb is emphasised by the fact that both AER and Toyota have a 2.4l V6 LMP1 engine, but then Toyota has another powertrain on top of that probably producing the same amount of power again. You can mess about with fuel flow rates and the rest, but the gap is huge. What to do...

[PorscheFanNo1]

Originally Posted by Mike E

IIRC the info only came out during LM scrutineering.

The mountain that LMP1-P has to climb is emphasised by the fact that both AER and Toyota have a 2.4l V6 LMP1 engine, but then Toyota has another powertrain on top of that probably producing the same amount of power again. You can mess about with fuel flow rates and the rest, but the gap is huge. What to do...

Not sure if that was a retorical question. But in my book theres two ways to go.

- Get rid of the fuel-flow restrictions altogether and get back to good old intake-restrictors for LMP1 non-hybrids. That will save them money and will take them back to familiar technologies. At the same time, make sure they get some 750hp. Should close up the gap a bit and at the same time not forcing them to run and monitor expensive fuel flow equipment, allowing them to focus time and money on other things.

- Or they can keep the regs as they are, and allow them to run an off the shelfe hybrid system provided by FIA. This will in no way save the teams any money though, and the cost of developing and partly finansing those systems must come from FIA/ACO. That way they can atleast get closer to the insane acceleration out of the corners. At Silverstone you could clearly see that when an Hybrid was close to a Non-hybrid, the hybrid would draw away easily 100meters at the exit of the corner, looking as the non-hybrid were standing still, yet further down the straight the speeds and gap were similar, and the Non-hybrid even had higher top speed at the end. Its clear its in this area (out of corners) they are losing huge amounts of time.

Add to that, that the competition in LMP1 privateers arent really that great right now, that in turn makes the cars slower. Right now its more or less just stay ahead of LMP2 and try run without issues, and they are satisfied with that. Had there been 5-7 cars in the class everyone would raise their game, and the laptimes for sure (especially in race-pace) would drop a few seconds right away.

[Mike E]

There is a double whammy on corner exit: huge torque from the electric systems AND 4 wheel drive.

[TF110]

Thats something I was thinking. Give the private teams the option to run 4wd- full time.

[Mike E]

Originally Posted by TF110

Thats something I was thinking. Give the private teams the option to run 4wd- full time.

Surely a huge job to run a prop shaft through a car with the gearbox at the back. It's easy for the hybrids because they have electric motors up front.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Mike E

Surely a huge job to run a prop shaft through a car with the gearbox at the back. It's easy for the hybrids because they have electric motors up front.

That's why I said option. Something like the GTR LM would be nice to see if it was truly 4wd.

[truebeliever]

Originally Posted by PorscheFanNo1

Not sure if that was a retorical question. But in my book theres two ways to go.

- Get rid of the fuel-flow restrictions altogether and get back to good old intake-restrictors for LMP1 non-hybrids. That will save them money and will take them back to familiar technologies. At the same time, make sure they get some 750hp. Should close up the gap a bit and at the same time not forcing them to run and monitor expensive fuel flow equipment, allowing them to focus time and money on other things.

- Or they can keep the regs as they are, and allow them to run an off the shelfe hybrid system provided by FIA. This will in no way save the teams any money though, and the cost of developing and partly finansing those systems must come from FIA/ACO. That way they can atleast get closer to the insane acceleration out of the corners. At Silverstone you could clearly see that when an Hybrid was close to a Non-hybrid, the hybrid would draw away easily 100meters at the exit of the corner, looking as the non-hybrid were standing still, yet further down the straight the speeds and gap were similar, and the Non-hybrid even had higher top speed at the end. Its clear its in this area (out of corners) they are losing huge amounts of time.

Add to that, that the competition in LMP1 privateers arent really that great right now, that in turn makes the cars slower. Right now its more or less just stay ahead of LMP2 and try run without issues, and they are satisfied with that. Had there been 5-7 cars in the class everyone would raise their game, and the laptimes for sure (especially in race-pace) would drop a few seconds right away.

Even simpler solution!

Drop the really expensive fuel flow meters for the privateer teams, who cannot afford to buy them in 50 or 100 lots, and bench test and find which one is more advantageous to us!

Use the simple, but effecitive system used in Group C. You get X amount of liters of fuel for Y amount of kilometers, use it how you like during the race, at race end, you used too much....you are disqualified.

No expensive meters and monitoring and everyone knows exactly where they stand. Plus is can be spin doctored as still conserving fuel etc.

But hang on, that would a be a simple and obvious non complicated or expensive system, with nothing to be gained financially by the FIA. so of coutrse that will never happen.

[TF110]

Hopefully the teams voiced this to the rulemakers like they did to the media.

[carbon_titanium]

don't know how much great is the 4WD option for private lmp1...

first of all, there are technical and engineering issues... how and where should be placed the front shaft through the car monocoque?
and then, does it worth?
private lmp1 will improve their acceleration, but surely will get a worse speed cornering because of a worse understeering compared to a RWD car... maybe this issue could be fixed using an active suspension system that will let rear wheels steering, more or less like 918 hybrid or the nissan gt-r r34.

They could get 2-3 seconds, it's not bad, but will be cars much more complex and expensive for private teams, and anyway won't be any close to work hybrid lmp1 however.

[carbon_titanium]

anyway, repeat, to me the only and sustainable way to increase private lmp1 field is simple... from 2017-2018 there will be dozens of grandfathered lmp2 coupè around like ligier and oreca05... bring these cars, get inside the AER P60 and peace.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by truebeliever

Even simpler solution!

Drop the really expensive fuel flow meters for the privateer teams, who cannot afford to buy them in 50 or 100 lots, and bench test and find which one is more advantageous to us!

Exactly, the fuel flow is entirely pointless for the non hybrids!

[carbon_titanium]

yeah, but private lmp1 have a fuel flow rate of over 100kg/h... basically they are running unrestricted!!!

[TzeiTzei]

Just give them more power. A bloody trans am car has 850hp.

[carbon_titanium]

Originally Posted by TzeiTzei

Just give them more power. A bloody trans am car has 850hp.

a trans am car hasn't to run for 24 hours...
magic of turbo engines is that it doesn't matter the displacement, you can obtain the power you wish just increasing turbo pressure!
at example, nissan silvia s15 was powered by 2 engines, both 2L, one was turbocharged, the latter NA. The NA engine max output was 165hp... the stock turbo engine max output was in the range of 240hp... a lot of tuners modified turbo keeping the stock engine achieving power close to 1000hp too...

the only "little problem" is that insane boost makes the engine insanely unreliable... considering that the AER P60 of rebellion and kolles, for sure isn't the state of art about reliability, a power increase will make the engine even more unreliable.