Kents to be replaced by Honda in US - Page 3

kartingdad · 3 Aug 2009, 20:22 (Ref:2514904)

I think you wll find a duratec engine would probably do 3 seasons with no discernable reduction in performane. So no need to mess with the ecu.

SAMD · 3 Aug 2009, 20:28 (Ref:2514908)

Oh Man! Imagine starting your 3rd season with an engine that you know will be fine and as good as any out there!

SAMD · 3 Aug 2009, 20:31 (Ref:2514910)

The only thing you need to worry about is, set up, spring rates, shock settings, tyres, seat time, gearing, weight, ......

SAMD · 3 Aug 2009, 20:32 (Ref:2514911)

The wife, the kids, the mortgage, the bank, holidays, business, parents, .............

0100 · 4 Aug 2009, 03:20 (Ref:2515134)

Imagine getting 5 seasons. The duratec is great and had one in my FE car running in the SCCA which is a spec formula class with a sealed duratec, and that went 3 seasons then I sold the car and the current owner is still running it and has no plans of replacing it until it pops.

Now imagine a Honda 4cyl, and I love ford, but in the 4cyl area Honda is king. Not really a fan of the cars mainly because they are FWD, but you cannot deny they have the 4cyl engine pretty much perfected. I see 5 season no sweat with the Fit engine.

Redracer77 · 4 Aug 2009, 13:32 (Ref:2515439)

if it would have its own championship then why limit the power it to kent pace? Just leave them un touched other than fit the ACB10 tyres and off you go. I am not interested in driving a Formula Ford again but I would if a Club Duratec Class came in.

I moved to F4 because I wanted a more reliable, faster car and also to try some other circuits but would happlily race a Duratec at Oulton Park again. But why would I invest in a new car and motor to go the same speed....

I would think you can get a grid of 10 or 12 cars in year 1 and then build from it. If you read the article in Autosport about Formula Renault they had something like 6 cars in its first year, but look now......must be over 150 cars racing all over europe. As more cars get built then more chassis come on the market.

It is a case of when rather than if..... it might take someone like the 750mc to take up the baton.......

driftwood · 4 Aug 2009, 14:17 (Ref:2515466)

FR was supported by the maker= big difference PLUS it was already established concept in France for over 15 years

Ford are not interested in FFord
Zetec cars 10 a penny but folk are not actively racing them or seeking own series
cant see the need to start yet another race car series

kartingdad · 4 Aug 2009, 17:07 (Ref:2515572)

Quote:

Originally Posted by driftwood

FR was supported by the maker= big difference PLUS it was already established concept in France for over 15 years

Ford are not interested in FFord
Zetec cars 10 a penny but folk are not actively racing them or seeking own series
cant see the need to start yet another race car series

Point 1 - probably correct

Point 2 - Because they are neither 1 thing or the other.

Point 3 - I presume you are happy with racing your Kent engined FF then.....

driftwood · 4 Aug 2009, 20:24 (Ref:2515706)

I will confess not got the thing running yet ( i hope next week or so! ) but i think i will be happy to run it as it is
logically zetec should have been teh way forward for post 85 sereis but no one supported it and if it had lmped along putting duratec cars into teh serie swould be logical A and B class c.ship
but i think kent has a strong following it will be hard to know knock it off the perch

Thundersports · 4 Aug 2009, 22:43 (Ref:2515787)

Having read through the thread I would be on the Honda side of the fence as someone who has looked at racing again in single seaters one of the biggest costs is engine rebuilds/failures/level playing field. IF the Honda engine overcame this and when the purchasing costs filter down to the second hand market/combined with the lower running costs it can only benefit the FFord 1600 concept and make it stronger.

FFmygale · 5 Aug 2009, 08:20 (Ref:2515951)

Quote:

Originally Posted by driftwood

FR was supported by the maker= big difference PLUS it was already established concept in France for over 15 years

Ford are not interested in FFord
Zetec cars 10 a penny but folk are not actively racing them or seeking own series
cant see the need to start yet another race car series

I presume you mean Ford are not interested in Kent FF? Surely they are interested in Duratec?

Zetec was a different animal - very top heavy engine, inducing distinctly different handling characteristics.

I agree with you on point 3 but is anyone actually suggesting starting another SEPARATE race series here? That is not how I am reading it! It seems to me like this discussion is about establishing a format whereby drivers would have the choice of using a performance restricted version of the duratec engine OR remaining with their existing kent engine as part of the same race, and no different classes. Or am I barking.....

flat broke · 16 Sep 2009, 00:10 (Ref:2541620)

How often has a major motor corp. come to formula ford with an engine proposal and an offer of future support?

JustinDawkins · 17 Sep 2009, 10:33 (Ref:2542705)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redracer77

I moved to F4 because I wanted a more reliable.....

Can you honestly say they are more reliable? From what I hear they are at best equal in reliability terms.

I don't really understand why you are all wanting to change again, you got the steel cranks and now you want Japanese engines. Maybe some of you guys should just concentrate on having fun and racing.

Triple J Motorsport · 17 Sep 2009, 14:40 (Ref:2542834)

Justin the Zetec motor is a fit and forget option assume the Duratec is much the same.

FFmygale · 17 Sep 2009, 18:40 (Ref:2542965)

Somehow I don't think 'Formula Honda' has the same historic and sentimental ring to it as Formula Ford!

Why is it people are so against considering 'progress' of any type though? We really are against change in this country - its quite pathetic really.

flat broke · 22 Sep 2009, 19:01 (Ref:2546182)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustinDawkins

I don't really understand why you are all wanting to change again, you got the steel cranks and now you want Japanese engines. Maybe some of you guys should just concentrate on having fun and racing.

Those of us lucky enough to have a good Kent motor are having a blast. This year we had close to 250 cars at Road America for the 40th reunion. Over 85 cars on the (club ford) grid. My local series (Ontario Formula Ford Challenge) had another strong season despite the economic doom and gloom. A healthy mix of experienced drivers and young hard chargers. Both Conor Daily and Josef Newgarden ran the same series last year.

Most of us became aware of the Honda proposal at the 40th. The conversion was professional and many of the top drivers ran the car throughout the weekend. As far as I am aware, it was initiated by folks within the Honda performance division. Other than the perpetual grumbling about the supply of Kent blocks, I don't believe it was a response to a request to find an alternative from racers or the SCCA.

Any such proposal (and offer of future support) has to be given serious consideration. South of the border, Formula Ford has trouble attracting new (young) blood and having a old pushrod, non EFI lump in the back seems to be part of the image problem. Cost of building a reliable Kent motor is another.

kartingdad · 22 Sep 2009, 19:29 (Ref:2546205)

Quote:

Originally Posted by flat broke

Those of us lucky enough to have a good Kent motor are having a blast. This year we had close to 250 cars at Road America for the 40th reunion. Over 85 cars on the (club ford) grid. My local series (Ontario Formula Ford Challenge) had another strong season despite the economic doom and gloom. A healthy mix of experienced drivers and young hard chargers. Both Conor Daily and Josef Newgarden ran the same series last year.

Most of us became aware of the Honda proposal at the 40th. The conversion was professional and many of the top drivers ran the car throughout the weekend. As far as I am aware, it was initiated by folks within the Honda performance division. Other than the perpetual grumbling about the supply of Kent blocks, I don't believe it was a response to a request to find an alternative from racers or the SCCA.

Any such proposal (and offer of future support) has to be given serious consideration. South of the border, Formula Ford has trouble attracting new (young) blood and having a old pushrod, non EFI lump in the back seems to be part of the image problem. Cost of building a reliable Kent motor is another.

As far as I am aware the kent engine in the states is a distant cousin to a UK kent engine: Ally head, light flywheel etc. If those mods dont make the engine reliable, what chance have we with flywheels from a WWII Sherman tank and heads heavier and older than the ones from Easter Island?

flat broke · 22 Sep 2009, 19:58 (Ref:2546229)

Quote:

Originally Posted by kartingdad

As far as I am aware the kent engine in the states is a distant cousin to a UK kent engine: Ally head, light flywheel etc. If those mods dont make the engine reliable, what chance have we with flywheels from a WWII Sherman tank and heads heavier and older than the ones from Easter Island?

Not entirely true. We are talking about the same block. Ally head is no more reliable (maybe less). Improved reliability and less need for re-sleeving the block comes from better quality of pistons and crank. Lightening the flywheel helps reduce destructive harmonics in the rpm range where these engines live.

BTW what is the supply of 711M blocks like in the UK? What would you pay for a bare block that wouldn't need re-sleeving?

kartingdad · 22 Sep 2009, 20:09 (Ref:2546240)

If the ally head is no more reliable, why use them?
Latest pistons (from Ford) are not very good quality and also have top (and I suppose the other 2 as well) positioned a few mill further down from the crown, leading to a lower compression ratio. We can now use a better qulaity crank, but a block that doesn't need resleeving? Pretty much unheard of in my experience, and to be honest, not really heard of an issue with linered blocks being an issue.

711m blocks are of course getting harder to find as engines disintegrate from time to time...

The other problem with sourcing kent engines is that there is/was a thriving kit car market over here that used kent engines.

Its a diminishing source of hardware that could be simply resolved by moving with the times in the same way as most normal folk upgrade their pc's as time goes on

Can't remember when someone was wailing about not being able to replace their old pentuimII pc complete with 4 meg of ram with the same as the broken one ran just fine....

driftwood · 22 Sep 2009, 20:24 (Ref:2546250)

blocks are harder to find cos they need re linered that cost 300 quid
usa can run 1601 cc we cant i can buy 4 blocks off a yank all illegal here my builder said they are worth 50 quid due to re liner cost but to a yanky racer block is fine worth 500 bucks? !!

do the alloy heads cause over heating type problems? also the runners with alloy head have to add ballst to engine to equalise the steel head weight

flat broke · 22 Sep 2009, 21:08 (Ref:2546281)

The ally head was to deal with the lack of supply. I have a good iron head on my vintage legal motor and would not swap it for a good alloy one.

The ally head does not cause overheating but is more prone to damage following a spike in temp.

You could argue that if you need to carry ballast to meet mimimum weight then better it is low down and central that in the head.

driftwood · 22 Sep 2009, 21:51 (Ref:2546303)

agree on low dwn weight BUT the weight should be up high to equalise the motors charactoristics

flat broke · 23 Sep 2009, 12:07 (Ref:2546585)

Nothing to specify where the ballast is placed.

Just to venture further off topic. In the OFFC we can run 25lbs lighter for each end that is outboard suspension. So total min weight is 1100 lbs. I can run my 1980 crossle at 1050 lbs. Not likely that i will get down to that weight without an aluminum head.

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