Costs...

[Shoestring]

Having not raced for a couple of seasons for various reasons we have been looking at the cost of returning to do a few races in Club FF1600 and wondering why the grid sizes are now so poor in both NW and MS compared with a few years ago.
But we have discovered the costs of entry etc are getting out of all proportion to what is going on in the general economic climate and do consider that some urgent costing reviews need to be done otherwise FF1600will eventually die, courtesy of the BRSCC.

Take for instance:-
BRSCC membership £165 (£150+15 non renewal)
Championship entry £100
Race entry £200

This is before you even get on the track!

I think it is time the BRSCC started to look very hard at the 750 MCC charges or even look at the BARC who run Classic FF. They are way lower...Why?
It is then not hard to see why there are falling grid sizes.

All this is before the absolutely silly price of ACB10's and other car costs are taken into consideration. Why are we still using this very overpriced poor quality tyre!

There are now I believe a very large number of eligible FF1600's sitting in garages up and down the country which would love an outing but the costs are now just plain silly for the ordinary club competitor funding his/her racing out of earned income!

For us I think we will be to sitting another season out .....or then again maybe go Classic FF !

[Triple J Motorsport]

You won't find any disagreement on here.

Hopefully James' COB run by MSVR takes off.

Wonder how much Hankook remoulds are, they use them on the Porsches and Alfa's probably less than £50 a tyre?

[Shoestring]

Agreed...tyres need not cost more than £50 each. If every one is on them then it doesn't matter.
It would bring down the substantial cost of racing in ClubFF1600 at a single stroke.

This seeming stranglehold that we have with Avon and ACB10's needs to be urgently looked at.

[Shoestring]

Feel like a lone voice in the wilderness here....but I am sure that it is not so!

What is needed to my way of thinking is a breakaway series, say organised by JEB( who obviously knows what he is doing) which is based on reducing costs all round .i.e lower cost tyres, lower entry fees, lower championship registration etc.

I believe that under the BRSCC this series will be dead within 5years unless the costs don't come down significantly!

[Pink Panther]

Hi Shoestring,
Yes please come and join the Classic FF Championship. I am sure you would be most welcome.

It is a great championship with some very accomplished drivers. It offers what is for sure the best value for many of any proper single seater racing car anywhere.

We have a ten round championship at good venues, with a mix of single and double header events.

The cars are well priced, well prepared and the racing is close. The Classic Formula Ford Register offer a number incentives to attract new drivers to the championship so come and have a chat with us visit www.classicformulaford.com for details.

The BARC are the probably the cheapest of the big clubs with entry’s typically £185 (£205 for the premium tracks). Membership £110 Registration £10, but if you do the whole season you get 1 entry free!!

Membership of the Classic Formula Ford Register is mandatory, but at £75.00 offers great value. Regular paddock BBQ's, an annual dinner dance and a good deal of the money is re-invested into the club by way of attracting new drivers with a regular and successful presence at shows and events. Basically a club run by racing drivers for racing drivers.

In the first instance visit our Web Page www.classicformulaford.com and or contact Andy Hodson.

Our next race is at Oulton Park on the 5th June so pay us a visit there. Talk to any of the drivers and they will point you in the right direction of Andy or a fellow committee member.

Good luck and I hope to race against you sometime.

Andy

[diz]

Originally Posted by Pink Panther

Our next race is at Oulton Park on the 5th June so pay us a visit there. Talk to any of the drivers and they will point you in the right direction of Andy or a fellow committee member.

No it isn't Andy
According to your website it is this coming Saturday 23rd May.

And regarding your other points, I agree it is a good and friendly championship.

[FA73]

Oulton Park Classic FF1600 - 23rd May 2009
Qualifying 8:50am
Racing approx 13:15

Andy Hodson is not going to be at Oulton Park as he is on holiday but if you like come and find me - Andrew Smith - Red Van Diemen FA73 - Number 49.

[Shoestring]

Thanks for the offer guys unfortunately fully committed on the domestic front this weekend but will try and catch up with you at another meeting.

Have a good one.

[Pink Panther]

Apologies to all and I stand corrected, miss read my entry pack. Thanks to the more observant of you!!

Good luck to all at Oulton Park. I will be back out again at Brands / Thruxton & Pembrey

Andy

[driftwood]

why are acb10 £450 plus queens pension fund contribution?
does seem a lot of money for a "solid" tyre they cost more than my 8 ply van tyres that will do 40000 or so miles and get a lot of abuse

[Shoestring]

Hi Driftwood,

The silly price of ACB 10's is what I keep going on about. It just cannot be supported. 3 good races and the things are virtually shot.

The price either has to come down or the series needs to defect to another tyre, plain and simple. The problem is that under the regime of the BRSCC I just cannot see it happening.

A movement for change needs to start right now to gather momentum for the 2010 season.
Tyres, Championship fees/entry fees, the whole cost base has got be reviewed and changed in order to secure the long term future of Club FF1600.

[kartingdad]

3 good races and they are shot?

Qually and a dry race and thats the edge taken off them. Maybe good for a couple of test sessions after that - no point pounding round trying to set the car up to accommodate worn out tyres imho.

It's a hard fact of life, new tyres are faster. They then reach a plateau for about 50 laps at a lower level, then chuck them.

You could use tyres with a high concrete factor built into them, but you might as well go and race fairground go karts for the grip you will get.

Even if the tyres lasted longer, the newer the tyre, the faster it is.

And as for using remoulds, well thats degenerating into banger racing I'm afraid.

The most effective way to cut costs are :

Cut entry fees.

Reduce champ reg fees. (why do you need a fee to register for a championship? Hardly a massive cost in time and cost to work out points. A spreadsheet will do it all for you anyway.)

Have double headers on the same day and always the day after a test day. On two occasions this year we have had testing on a friday and racing on a sunday, costing £100's in accommodation. The donington meeting coming up in June has testing on the Thursday and racing on a Sunday. Barmy.

Lastly, and most cost effective, would be for the 'organisers' to actively promote the meetings to encourage larger spectator attendances. Done in conjunction with the circuit owners, any gate takings could be used to cut competitor entries (rather than increase the organising clubs profits). This would encourage larger numbers of competitors and so on..

Unfortunately, it would appear that it is easier and more convenient not to promote race meetings on that basis when the competitors are the immediate and almost willing cash cow.

I know its been said hundreds of times before, but once more can't hurt...

[driftwood]

Karting dad your right on all counts sadly we need a " revolution" to get things changed
circuit owners rape pillage the organisning club in rental fees which we then as racers have to foot and the bstdo circuit owner WANTS the gate money
entry should be a quid fill teh stands then double teh cost and they willwin
but its crazy why should a club rent track at extorniate rate for the landowner to take the gate money?
If they had a good gate they can reduce rental fee to club who reduce entry fee to the racers who shell out £1000`s to buy car race it etc etc

as for tyres in the old days Dunlops lasted long time often better worn than new

[kartingdad]

I would imagine later spec cars, that run far stiffer than older cars, are far more sensitive to worn tyres which, particularly at the front, do not wear flat accross the tread surface.

It can be helped a little by swapping tyres from side to side, but ultimately by doing that you are trying to polish, shall we say, something not exactly wholesome...

[driftwood]

yes later cars are more sensitive to worn tyres i kno wyou cant polish a richard III but tyre costs should be looked into or a more VFM supplier broght into the series
It could be put out to tender

[Bob Pearson]

Originally Posted by driftwood

yes later cars are more sensitive to worn tyres i kno wyou cant polish a richard III but tyre costs should be looked into or a more VFM supplier broght into the series
It could be put out to tender

Regrettably I suspect motorsports idea of a tender is the contract being awarded to the tenderer who offers the biggest bung to the tender organiser, rather than the best package for the consumer.

[kartingdad]

I'm sorry, but that cannot possibly be true. LOL

[FranksWilde]

I think we've had all this before. It's supposed to go out to tender every year but it either doesn't, or no one else bids. C'est la vie.

[kartingdad]

Thats half the problem then. Goes out to tender to the same bloke every year.

About as transparent as a nuclear reactor casing.

We are all mugged by the modern day Dick Turpin of our sport. These days he wears a blazer instead of a mask though...

[driftwood]

i would suggest we as FF1600 racers source individual suppliers ie yokohama dunlop bridgestone matador ( as used on radicals) and ask them to supply tyre to suit our cars
we can then evaluate with 3 or 4 car driver team combos a test day or 2 to see what "works" and at what price
even if the tyre was pants and it was a better [rice we would all be in same leaky boat but " happier" at the price or it can be used as a lever to the current supplier to sort out their product and price
Im off to buy a blazer mask and find a bung!

[FranksWilde]

This has been tried and put forward before. I think Mr Sanders tried to suggest that the drivers got together at the end of last year but when a show of hands was asked for no one was interested.

Total apathy.

[driftwood]

the only way it can be changed is if
1 the circuit organiser group alter their rules
2 all drivers stepp up to the plate and show their hand
3 some brave sole takes it upon themselves to do the evaluation test get quotes then come back and show the circuit c/ship organisers what they can offer
you only need 1 tyre company to offer 4 tyres at £395 per set to get avon over the barrel

[SAMD]

Originally Posted by driftwood

the only way it can be changed is if
1 the circuit organiser group alter their rules
2 all drivers stepp up to the plate and show their hand
3 some brave sole takes it upon themselves to do the evaluation test get quotes then come back and show the circuit c/ship organisers what they can offer
you only need 1 tyre company to offer 4 tyres at £395 per set to get avon over the barrel

The snag is, the cost to the individual (or poor sole as you put it) who spends his time running about trying to do as you suggest. He will probably spend all his free time and then some, this year, trying to sort this out and at best how much is he likely to save, £1k? that would be pushing it. No one is going to do that.
There should be a FF1600 drivers association or something, that issues like this could be taken to. If every FF1600 driver paid say £30 registration fee that would provide say £5k for operating funds. But that is probably not enough. So you would be back to charging the competitor £100s and the whole idea breaks down again....

[driftwood]

Yr not wrong on yr points
yes some porr sole frigs around doing the grafting and may get sand kicke din his face at the end BUT if he pulls it off he can be the distributor to UKFF1600 association drivers/ championships at a set rate and thos ewho are not members pay extar 30 quid per set
they would of course be getting trade price purchase on tyres will need possibly small LWB van with tyre machines to visit some tracks to supply fit tyres or just do mail order send out to customers

The concept of a ff1600 association is not a bad concept maybe someone like Diz ( ian smith) would be logical port of call to discuss/run/ organise it with an annual or bi annual voted for panel of say 7 delegates from each region ie scotland NI oulton coombe brands and midland areas and 1 more delegate if anglesey /pembrey or eire want in on the committee
they can then propose some rule chnages ie the crank weight debate of last year to present to racmsa also liase with the festival organisers for coombe brands WHT etc
have website for forum championship dates points stuff for sale etc

would you take the association to the post Historic racers only or the whole 1600 racing series throuoght the british isles
also the french run kent class maybe drag them in as well?

[kartingdad]

In these days of diminishing grids, I would have thought the organising clubs and circuit owners would remove their collective heads out of the sand (or up their backsides) and endeavour to get a bit commercial.

After all small grids = small money whichever way you look at it. To try and get the same money (or more) from a smaller pool of competitors isn't the correct way to do business.

Additionally if you look at the different BRSCC championships, there is, for instance, a £30 increase in ff1600 entry fees over, say the Alfa championship. Why is that? I understand its not a lot, but why the difference at all?