[BTCC] Rounds 1,2,3 Brands Hatch Indy 2017

[touringlegend]

This is where the BTCC gets tricky. You slap the BMWs with a penalty then BMW question why the flung a load of cash at a new engine.
Whilst at the same time you need to try and maintain a level playing field.

[pagey318]

I don't see an issue. The BMW has advantages over other cars, and then other cars have advantages over the BMW... It just so happens that one of the BMWs advantages is the talent sitting between the wheel and the head rest. I don't see anyone moaning about Honda's vastly superior braking or the Mercedes superior turning speed in the tight corners...

All cars will have advantages and disadvantages regardless of drive train and chassis length etc.

Just leave it as it is and let the cream rise to the top

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by S griffin

But as has been said before how many times have the FWD cars dominated? You see you can't just punish RWD, without doing the same to FWD

Since the performance balancing was removed between S2000 and NGTC FWD cars have made up approximately 85% of race entries, but have only won about 65% of races - so where is the FWD dominance in NGTC?



The following quotes have all been made by BTCC Champions:-

Matt Neal - “The next Civic is a four-wheel drive car, so we can do it [switch to RWD]," he said. "That’s what [TOCA] have pushed the formula into."

Jason Plato - "When all the NGTC cars are developed, RWD is inherently better, better weight distribution, better traction. They need extra weight or a longer first gear. That's not just based on today, it's based on 20 years' experience."

Andrew Jordan - [something should be done about the RWD starts], "I'd be putting in a longer first gear, but I don't know what else they can do."

Jason Plato (predicting what has happened) - “It isn’t just me that is upset with this whole situation of FWD vs. RWD, everyone up and down the paddock is. [...] no one is going to want to race front-wheel-drive cars. Fundamentally rear-wheel-drive should never have been allowed to enter because they were never meant to have been anyway. NGTC was only designed exclusively for front-wheel-drive and the problem is that original design is flawed if you allow them in and don’t penalize them. They have to make changes to the regulations because if they don’t then they may as well throw the formula in the skip. The simple fact is that on all front-wheel-drive cars, the center of mass is forward of the front wheels. For the BMW’s, they are nearly a meter further back than mine, meaning the center of weight of his engine is under his front windscreen. You don’t need to be a rocket scientist to work out that it is a fundamental advantage and weight distribution is critical. [...] The engineers have worked out that rear-wheel-drive needs extra weight on the car and lower boost in their first gear, that isn’t hard to do, it is simple mathematics. If that happens then we should have a level playing field.”

[Sodemo]

I'd rather give the FWD cars a 25-50kg weight break. I think the current cars are heavy enough without piling more weight on them.

[redshoes]

Are we still pushing this 4WD Civic to RWD nonsense? Engine has to remain in the same orientation as the road car, and TOCA don't allow a transverse-engined RWD configuration.

Would it be easier to understand if I randomly used different font sizes and bold text?

[Craner Curves]

Originally Posted by redshoes

Are we still pushing this 4WD Civic to RWD nonsense? Engine has to remain in the same orientation as the road car, and TOCA don't allow a transverse-engined RWD configuration.

Would it be easier to understand if I randomly used different font sizes and bold text?

How dare you speak the truth!

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by redshoes

TOCA don't allow a transverse-engined RWD configuration.

Unless the regulations are amended, then agreed it won't happen - but the point remains that RWD seems to be more suited to NGTC

Originally Posted by redshoes

Would it be easier to understand if I randomly used different font sizes and bold text?

I guess that would depend on if you were emphasising certain words within a paragraph?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Craner Curves

How dare you speak the truth!

Don't let that get in the way of a BTCC driver voicing their opinion in public.
The truth can be held back for an under the radar press release at a later date.

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Don't let that get in the way of a BTCC driver voicing their opinion in public.

Be careful about taking driver opinions / rants at face value.

Plato and Jordan both say that RWD should be given extra penalties... when they were driving FWD cars. Ask them now if they still have the same opinion.

Claiming your opposition has an unfair advantage and should be penalised is all part of the game. This week it's FWD vs RWD, before that it was boost, or straight line speed, or aero, or centre of gravity, or or or.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by redshoes

Be careful about taking driver opinions / rants at face value.

Plato and Jordan both say that RWD should be given extra penalties... when they were driving FWD cars. Ask them now if they still have the same opinion.

Claiming your opposition has an unfair advantage and should be penalised is all part of the game. This week it's FWD vs RWD, before that it was boost, or straight line speed, or aero, or centre of gravity, or or or.

Totally agree. I think all the drivers are 'guilty' of blending the truth to portray a reason why a.n.other may be more successful. This will be as much to placate those who fund their drive as it will be a genuine attempt to get the regulations changed.

Easily overlooked so far has been the fact that Subaru's results last season (like motorbase previously) have come off the back of carrying little/no ballast into weekends. Compared to TD and WSR, who have built up years of experience in their teams regarding the cars they run and have to rely on every ounce of this at times to get results.
My main worry would be if potential manufacturers hear that RWD is almost essential for results, and that puts them off as they don't have a suitable car. Particularly when the statements regarding RWD have come from high profile corners.

If say Kia were considering an entry, then apparent boost/speed/handling deficiencies can be compensated through engineering, but having the wrong transmission layout is insurmountable.

[850Estate]

I think we're getting a bit carried away with things here, if RWD start to dominate unfairly then I'd agree that either a weight penalty (or weight loss for FWD, which I like) probably should be brought in.

However we're in a situation where, since the dawn of NGTC, 5 out of the 6 champions have driven FWD Honda Civics. Dynamics deserve great credit for what they've done with the car, and it's clearly glorious on the brakes. They also have two of the best drivers on the grid, so are naturally going to be near the front. It's the same with BMW and Subaru. I'd expect all three BMW drivers to be in the top ten on ability, and the same goes with Plato and (probably at most rounds) Sutton.

If Cole and Price were suddenly scoring regular top 10s and top 5s then I'd question it, and the same would go with a (no disrespect intended here) 'lesser' driver in a BMW. However when we have some of the best drivers driving RWD cars their results are down to far more than just the drivetrain.

Looking at the grid now, and this is now easy task, if you asked me to put £100 on a top 10 without telling me the circuit or anything I'd go for something like this:

Shedden (FWD, Honda)
Neal (FWD, Honda)
Jordan (RWD, BMW)
Turkington (RWD, BMW)
Collard (RWD, BMW)
Plato (RWD, Subaru)
Ingram (FWD, Toyota)
Jackson (FWD, Ford)
Austin (FWD, Toyota)
Sutton (RWD, Subaru)

We don't want to get to the situation where we deter teams from doing something different. RWD/FWD Honda engine/BMW engine/Subaru engine/Ford engine/Stock engine. It's all good for the Championship.

[BillWiskins]

Originally Posted by 850Estate

If Cole and Price were suddenly scoring regular top 10s and top 5s then I'd question it

This is it. I'm not a racing driver or a motorsports engineer but you only have to look at the 'other' two Subarus last year to see where the 'advantage' is coming from. If the drivers showed up for the next round inexplicably reallocated to different teams and different cars, I'd still expect Turkington, Plato, Shedden, etc to be pretty far up the grid whether they found themselves in a BMW, an MG6 or an Audi.

[porsche962fan]

Originally Posted by 850Estate

Dynamics deserve great credit for what they've done with the car, and it's clearly glorious on the brakes. They also have two of the best drivers on the grid,

hard to believe but Flash and Neal they are consecutive team mates since 2010 so their 8th season and it works for them , 4 driver titles isn't shabby

how can they achieve this and the other teams not heck they must have achieved some record for longest consistency !!


on a side note, Tim mentioned that Simpson now drives the Ex Andy Neat Civic which means they likely scrapped his old one

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

on a side note, Tim mentioned that Simpson now drives the Ex Andy Neat Civic which means they likely scrapped his old one

Not officially scrapped yet. It might be repaired later in the year.

[thlbtcc]

Originally Posted by redshoes

Not officially scrapped yet. It might be repaired later in the year.

Interesting.

[thlbtcc]

Allowing RWD cars brings variety, manufacturers and elevates the championship stature over and above other series, IMHO. Let's embrace it.

Sure, it will [should] be a RWD lock-out in Races 1 and 2 for Croft and Knockhill, but that's fine provided other teams maximise other tracks.

[Sodemo]

I'd much rather see a weight break for the FWD cars based on how much is physically possible to remove without causing too much expense. From what I understand the original 2012 NGTC cars were overweight, but that the weight of the cars has been reduced, though quite by how much is open to question. I understand the min weight is 1280kg, but can't be sure if that includes the driver - I dont think it does.

You could have it so that;

FWD - 1250Kg
RWD - 1275Kg

Of course then you add weight anyway through success ballast, however the point is the base weight which the cars default to.

[antnee]

All of this RWD vs FWD talk yet it only seems to be around the start advantage of RWD. How about the disadvantage of RWD when you are 'rubbed' on the rear quarter? In a FWD you just pin the throttle to counter - not so easy in a RWD.


Personally I think the rule set is pretty fair - yes RWD does get better starts but there was talk about the FWD can tighten their diffs for qualy to get a better lap time, so it all balances out in the end.

[S griffin]

Also their tyres take a while to get up to temperature, they can't cross their tyres over in quali and struggle in mixed conditions, so it's not like RWD is the be all and end all

[Rob877]

To be fair, the only issue that I felt made a difference was how quick the BMWs seemed to be in a straightline. Turkington pulled past Epps (in traditionally one of the quickest cars on the straights) quite easily on the run to the line at the end of race 2. For me I think TOCA have pretty much had it spot on with regards to the equalisation of all the different car configurations out there. I would hate to see the series go down an all FWD route with spec engines, it's nice to have the variety and makes the racing better as different cars are quicker in different parts of the track to others.

[porsche962fan]

Originally Posted by redshoes

Not officially scrapped yet. It might be repaired later in the year.

what would be the points as Shedden and Neal cars will be changed anyway for next year, cars would be available for sell to privateers



also surprised that supposedly none of this NGTC Civic ended in some museum as they won title as a works team multiple times, at least Honda should be interested for their collection

[antnee]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

what would be the points as Shedden and Neal cars will be changed anyway for next year, cars would be available for sell to privateers



also surprised that supposedly none of this NGTC Civic ended in some museum as they won title as a works team multiple times, at least Honda should be interested for their collection

According to the Register there has only been 7 Civics built, 5 were on the grid at Brands, 1 is a spare Eurotech car, the other is Simpsons's crashed car.

[Sodemo]

I'm kinda surprised we have not heard more from the BMR camp in the fallout from Brands Hatch.

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

what would be the points as Shedden and Neal cars will be changed anyway for next year, cars would be available for sell to privateers

^ This
Although not necessarily to BTCC privateers

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I'm kinda surprised we have not heard more from the BMR camp in the fallout from Brands Hatch.

After last August's exchange with TOCA, I think they are being more diplomatic this year. Their official line is 'the balance of*performance* applied to us over the winter break has had a big effect and resulted in our lack of performance'