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Old 3 May 2008, 09:53 (Ref:2193104)   #26
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Gruen appeared a couple of times in 1985 right?

The European Corrollas I remember were the Castrol Team Toyota Denmark car of John Nielsen and Erik Hoyer (the latter who had pedalled Dolomites and RS2000's in Group1 a few years earlier IIRC) in 1984 which was the car to beat in Class 1.

KA, I remember Marlboro and FINA backed entries in 1988, don't know if they're the ones you mean? The Fina team which I think was run by RAS formerly of Volvo fame? featured a quite well know rally driver of the time I think Van De Warwe (sp?!!!!) or something along with some other handy Belgians of the era.

Can't recall them all at this point!
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Old 3 May 2008, 10:05 (Ref:2193111)   #27
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JT can you move this to MH so I can merge it with the other Corolla thread please?
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Old 3 May 2008, 20:24 (Ref:2193388)   #28
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Old 3 May 2008, 23:14 (Ref:2193452)   #29
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Originally Posted by chunterer
Gruen appeared a couple of times in 1985 right?
Bit more than a couple of times- he did the first two or three rounds then dipped in and out of the series- particularly appearing at the GP supports etc. As I remember, it was a very low-budget effort with Gruen often acting as his own mechanic.

Just dug out some old Donington ETCC & TT programmes and had a look at Racingsportscars.com to get a handle on the major regular ETCC Corollas, so prepare for Corolla pic overload....

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Originally Posted by chunterer
The European Corollas I remember were the Castrol Team Toyota Denmark car of John Nielsen and Erik Hoyer (the latter who had pedalled Dolomites and RS2000's in Group1 a few years earlier IIRC) in 1984 which was the car to beat in Class 1.
The Nielsen/Hoyer Castrol car was very much the dominant Corolla early on around 1984/5/6- Kurt Thiim and Chris Hodgetts also had outings in the Castrol car in 86.
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-09-29-071.jpg

The other main Corollas at that stage were Milos Bychl's ASP Motorsport car, shared with a variety of Czech and Italian drivers (and interestingly Andrew Miedecke at the 85 TT) ...
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-07-28-072.jpg

...the German Robert Schumacher car- usually shared with none other than Hermann Tilke(!) and the Belgian IMC car of Fermine/de Liedekerke.

The number of Corollas increased in 86 with the likes of the Czech Georg Albers/Antonin Charouz car, the Swiss Bemani entry, the Lingmann/Holzl Scuderia AVUS car, some ETCC appearances by Chris Hodgetts, and IMC.

Was IMC the Belgian Toyota importer or something like that? If you look at Racingsportscars.com there always seem to have been loads of 'IMC' entries at Spa, including some of the regular cars from other teams

By the time of the WTCC in '87 the main players were Bemani, the Belgians, CHMS, Alber/Charouz etc. Apart from that there were the local entries at the 'flyaway' rounds in Australia, NZ and Japan- Team Toyota Australia, Bob Holden, plus a load of Japanese entries at Fuji

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Originally Posted by chunterer
KA, I remember Marlboro and FINA backed entries in 1988, don't know if they're the ones you mean? The Fina team which I think was run by RAS formerly of Volvo fame? featured a quite well know rally driver of the time I think Van De Warwe (sp?!!!!) or something along with some other handy Belgians of the era.

Can't recall them all at this point!
By '88 there were three main 2-car Corolla outfits in the ETCC:

the Belgian Fina cars for Guy Katsers/J-C Burton and Pierre Fermine/Serge de Liedekerke (think the rally driver you mentioned was J-P van der Wauwer or something like that)
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-05-29-122.jpg

the AAGRK Prague/Marlboro cars of Albers/Charouz and Eddy van Esch/Noel van der Eeckhout
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-05-29-126.jpg

and a pair from Peter Seikel- usually Seikel/Dagmar Suster in one and a variety of Italians in the other
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-05-29-124.jpg

Apart from that there was the Spanish Camac car...
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-05-15-129.jpg
...and a variety of others that dipped in and out of the series, such as Bob Holden at Spa, Stig Gruen, the fwd TOM'S GB car (plus a TOM'S car from Japan at Spa), CHMS etc. I'm pretty sure Gruen's car ran in Fina colours at Spa and the TT as well as the two Belgian Fina entries.

One interesting point is that apart from the Danish Castrol car, the majority of the European entries seemed to favour the 2-door saloon version rather than the 3-door hatch/coupe favoured by the BTCC Corolla entries. Was the 16-valver ever sold in 2-door form in the UK?

Last edited by KA; 3 May 2008 at 23:18.
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Old 4 May 2008, 08:13 (Ref:2193604)   #30
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Originally Posted by KA
Bit more than a couple of times- he did the first two or three rounds then dipped in and out of the series- particularly appearing at the GP supports etc. As I remember, it was a very low-budget effort with Gruen often acting as his own mechanic.
That's what I remember most about Stig Gruen. He'd often be seen during practice, diving into the pits, jumping out of the car to adjust his own tyre pressures, and then off out onto the track again (presumably with the pressure gauge still in his pocket!).
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Old 8 May 2008, 02:13 (Ref:2196525)   #31
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Some trivia to start with. Apparently the 4AGE engine bears more than a passing resemblance to the BDA and apparently is classic example of 'Japanese copy but done better'.

They did make a helluva racket though didn't they... gotta have been one of the loudest touring cars ever.
Not only was the basic architecture of the 4A-GE the same as the BDA, they also shared the same bore & stroke.
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Old 8 May 2008, 07:50 (Ref:2196639)   #32
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Not a bad engine at all to use as the template I would've thought!!!

Back to the cars themselves, what was the deal with Tony Dolley and Les Liddiard's FXGT's in 1989. They only appeared for that season in plain white and red colours. Were they new or sourced from elsewhere and why were they so off the pace?

I also recall the Ray Armes driven PG Tips Honda Civic V-Tec coming out late in the season and setting a new benchmark for cars in that class; then MSA adopted Class 2/SuperTouring and a very well sponsored and expensive motor car was instantly obsolete......
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Old 8 May 2008, 08:57 (Ref:2196693)   #33
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Not a bad engine at all to use as the template I would've thought!!!

Back to the cars themselves, what was the deal with Tony Dolley and Les Liddiard's FXGT's in 1989. They only appeared for that season in plain white and red colours. Were they new or sourced from elsewhere and why were they so off the pace?

I also recall the Ray Armes driven PG Tips Honda Civic V-Tec coming out late in the season and setting a new benchmark for cars in that class; then MSA adopted Class 2/SuperTouring and a very well sponsored and expensive motor car was instantly obsolete......
Does anyone have pics of the Dolley and Liddiard cars?- I don't think I ever saw them at the time.

Going off-topic (but I don't think there were enough Hondas around to manage a topic of their own yet unless anyone has information on the cars raced in Japan- I've still got the Tamiya 1/24 kit of one of those somewhere) the Ray Armes car was run by Graham Goode as I remember? When the 2-litre regs came in a 4-door Civic saloon was built (run by Trakstar) but was never competitive- I have a vague memory they had to use the 1600 engine from the earlier car at the start of the season which didn;t help.

I've got a couple of pics somewhere- I know I posted a Brands paddock shot in the RS500 thread of Gravett's RS500 with the second Honda lurking in the background, but I think I have one of the earlier car as well.

I've got some Corolla pics to post, although quality-wise they're not up to much- they show the CHMS, Kimber-Smith and Crudgington cars, plus a few of the Europeans- I'll scan them at the weekend and see how they come out

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Old 8 May 2008, 09:13 (Ref:2196700)   #34
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I've got a couple of pics somewhere- I know I posted a Brands paddock shot in the RS500 thread of Gravett's RS500 with the second Honda lurking in the background, but I think I have one of the earlier car as well.
Staying off-topic for a moment- the second Ray Armes PG Tags Honda at Brands in 1990- someone seems to have left a Sierra in the way....
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Old 9 May 2008, 08:32 (Ref:2197445)   #35
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I did have some pics of the Corollas knocking around somewhere, i'll have a look.
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Old 11 May 2008, 20:58 (Ref:2199263)   #36
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Originally Posted by KA
Bit more than a couple of times- he did the first two or three rounds then dipped in and out of the series- particularly appearing at the GP supports etc. As I remember, it was a very low-budget effort with Gruen often acting as his own mechanic.

Just dug out some old Donington ETCC & TT programmes and had a look at Racingsportscars.com to get a handle on the major regular ETCC Corollas, so prepare for Corolla pic overload....



The Nielsen/Hoyer Castrol car was very much the dominant Corolla early on around 1984/5/6- Kurt Thiim and Chris Hodgetts also had outings in the Castrol car in 86.
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-09-29-071.jpg

The other main Corollas at that stage were Milos Bychl's ASP Motorsport car, shared with a variety of Czech and Italian drivers (and interestingly Andrew Miedecke at the 85 TT) ...
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-07-28-072.jpg

...the German Robert Schumacher car- usually shared with none other than Hermann Tilke(!) and the Belgian IMC car of Fermine/de Liedekerke.

The number of Corollas increased in 86 with the likes of the Czech Georg Albers/Antonin Charouz car, the Swiss Bemani entry, the Lingmann/Holzl Scuderia AVUS car, some ETCC appearances by Chris Hodgetts, and IMC.

Was IMC the Belgian Toyota importer or something like that? If you look at Racingsportscars.com there always seem to have been loads of 'IMC' entries at Spa, including some of the regular cars from other teams

By the time of the WTCC in '87 the main players were Bemani, the Belgians, CHMS, Alber/Charouz etc. Apart from that there were the local entries at the 'flyaway' rounds in Australia, NZ and Japan- Team Toyota Australia, Bob Holden, plus a load of Japanese entries at Fuji



By '88 there were three main 2-car Corolla outfits in the ETCC:

the Belgian Fina cars for Guy Katsers/J-C Burton and Pierre Fermine/Serge de Liedekerke (think the rally driver you mentioned was J-P van der Wauwer or something like that)
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-05-29-122.jpg

the AAGRK Prague/Marlboro cars of Albers/Charouz and Eddy van Esch/Noel van der Eeckhout
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-05-29-126.jpg

and a pair from Peter Seikel- usually Seikel/Dagmar Suster in one and a variety of Italians in the other
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-05-29-124.jpg

Apart from that there was the Spanish Camac car...
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-05-15-129.jpg
...and a variety of others that dipped in and out of the series, such as Bob Holden at Spa, Stig Gruen, the fwd TOM'S GB car (plus a TOM'S car from Japan at Spa), CHMS etc. I'm pretty sure Gruen's car ran in Fina colours at Spa and the TT as well as the two Belgian Fina entries.

One interesting point is that apart from the Danish Castrol car, the majority of the European entries seemed to favour the 2-door saloon version rather than the 3-door hatch/coupe favoured by the BTCC Corolla entries. Was the 16-valver ever sold in 2-door form in the UK?
I think that the 2- or 3-door question was a marketing ploy by Toyota in Europe: In my native Denmark, all AE86s were the coupé. Since Swede Stig Gruen was 1986 Swedish TCC Champion in a 3-door version I guess that Sweden sold the 3-door version as well, but in Finland it was another story. Heikki Välimäki drove his 2-door to great successes during the 1980's in a paintjob looking like the Australian TTA cars. Välimäki even did a rallycross euro counter or two during this period.

Japan focused on the 3-door coupé as well: http://homepage.mac.com/frank_de_jon...990%20Spa.html. As you can see from Weds Sport, they actually allowed for the pop-up head light version in Japan.

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Old 11 May 2008, 23:10 (Ref:2199586)   #37
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Group A Toyota Corolla History

About Stig Gruen's Corolla, Jesper suggests that that model (3-door) might have been sold in Sweden too, however Stigs was bought in Denmark! I Don't think that Corolla with the "right" engine was sold in Sweden at all.
I helped Gruen at different races when I had no other comittments, and once I happend to meet him at Oulton Park, Easter 85(?). He was alone, so we helped him with "basics" to do. Think he made an easy bump into the tires in practise.
As Jesper writes, Stig was Swedish Group A Champion in 86 (at 60), beating the Volvo and VW teams. Remember at Knutstorp, it was a 1½ h. race and there were two compulsory pit stops, with two wheel changes and tank filling with jerrycan. We had prepared the can with an air release nipple to make it easier and faster. We did it all at the first stop, so the 2nd one was just a stop and go, and Stig finished 4thO/A among all bigger machinery.
For '87 Gruen planned to go the ETC, so as Toyota Denmark were closing down, Gruen asked Erik Höyer if he wanted to join the team. Erik said yes, and enjoyed to be in the "cosiness team" - his own expression. Erik also liked that Gruen was faster than John Nielsen (not that F-3 Nielsen) in Toyota DK had been. I don't think Erik was paid for the drives with Gruen, he just loved to drive fast saloons.
The car was gradually updated with some homologation goodies, most on the suspension. He also bought some expensive bigger brakes and hubs and wheels with center lock, but they were never put on the car, so the car most run with 14" ordinary ATS wheels. The first engine was made with bits from Fritzinger in Germany, but think he then also got things from Toms. He designed the camshafts himself.
When they raced together I think they managed with a couple of third places, as at Anderstorp '87. We had a record crew of 6 incl. the drivers, which was laucy as we got lots to do. The first practise Gruen did think 2 laps and was then missing the rest of the session. The bolts to the flywheel had broken off. John Nielsen turned up to tell "You have to have new bolts every time the flywheel is off". Of course he was right. We changed the engine for Erik to begin the 2nd session. After 2 laps he was missing. The engine had lost the oil pressure so he stopped. Gruen had taken off the swing damper on the lower pulley to make the car 1 or 2 kgs lighter, but that broke the oil pump. It was "impossible" to change the pump without taking the engine out and apart, but somehow we did it whith the engine still in the car. So for the 3 and final session they just had to do their obligatory laps each.
Yes, there are many memories turning up.
Regards, Hagis
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Old 12 May 2008, 09:11 (Ref:2199869)   #38
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Thank you very much Hagis, for that piece of informative history. In early 1989 Gruen was reporting driving a VW Golf G60 in the states, inviting Erik Høyer over for a 3 hour race. This is the last I have ever heard of Gruen.

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Old 13 May 2008, 03:22 (Ref:2200658)   #39
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Thanks to all the guys who have put up plenty of info and photos of the European cars. It would be great to see some pics of the Aussie Corollas as well.
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Old 21 May 2008, 17:45 (Ref:2208477)   #40
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Not an Aussie Corolla, but a Japanese one- early TOM'S AE86 at Macau 1983
http://photo.163.com/photos/tcd1388/...26/#2250267921
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Old 28 May 2008, 22:10 (Ref:2214242)   #41
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Just looking around Racingsportscars.com, and reading the piece about the ex-Vojtech/Enge Hartge BMW in the Lany collection near Prague. In the second pic in the article, that looks like it might be one of the Georg Albers Marlboro Corollas lurking in the background (behind the D2-sponsored F3 car)

http://www.racingsportscars.com/arti...seum-Lany.html
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Old 31 May 2008, 10:01 (Ref:2215816)   #42
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Yep, looks like it doesn't it. Only other possibility is some random Grp A rally car or something?

I must try and get round to posting the images i've got. From memory i've got one of the Danish Castrol car fr the '84 TT sitting next to one of the XJS's I think.
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Old 1 Jun 2008, 12:26 (Ref:2216625)   #43
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Yep, looks like it doesn't it. Only other possibility is some random Grp A rally car or something?

I must try and get round to posting the images i've got. From memory i've got one of the Danish Castrol car fr the '84 TT sitting next to one of the XJS's I think.
Yes, found the website for the musuem- it is one of the Marlboro ETCC Corollas
http://www.auto-muzeum.cz/?page=en,t...corolla-gt-16v

I've dug my Corolla pics out- mostly 1986/88 TT plus a few BTCC shots- all pretty poor quality, but I'll see what I can do with them,as they include the Tony Crudgington BTCC car amongst others
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Old 2 Jun 2008, 13:49 (Ref:2217824)   #44
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I have a one or two photos of my late Dad driving Geoff Kimber-Smith's car in 1987 if anyone is interested in seeing them?
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Old 2 Jun 2008, 14:16 (Ref:2217836)   #45
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I have a one or two photos of my late Dad driving Geoff Kimber-Smith's car in 1987 if anyone is interested in seeing them?
Yes please!!! I've got the odd pic to post of the GK-S Corolla in 1988, but they're not up to much, so more would be very welcome
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Old 3 Jun 2008, 08:31 (Ref:2218420)   #46
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Here you go. I don't know when the photos were taken other than it was round 10 of the championship in 1987 and Dad and Geoff finished 9th but unfortunately I haven't got any mags that cover it. I can't put my finger on who is driving the red car other than it's a BRDC member but possibly a ""works" car from the subtle differences.



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Old 3 Jun 2008, 09:10 (Ref:2218453)   #47
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Nice one Gregor! Looks like your dad was pressing on in his usual manner there then?!!

That red one is the 2nd Chris Hodgetts run car that he usually ran in the WTCC for Andrew Bagnall if memory serves me right. I think Tiff Needell might have been in the car at this round - I seem to recall some strange strategy where Chris started in one car, Tiff in the other then they swapped cars at pit stop time or something?
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Old 3 Jun 2008, 09:21 (Ref:2218463)   #48
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Nice one Gregor! Looks like your dad was pressing on in his usual manner there then?!!

That red one is the 2nd Chris Hodgetts run car that he usually ran in the WTCC for Andrew Bagnall if memory serves me right. I think Tiff Needell might have been in the car at this round - I seem to recall some strange strategy where Chris started in one car, Tiff in the other then they swapped cars at pit stop time or something?
Yeah, definitely a bit of opposite lock in the first picture!!

I can't quite make out the names but none of those look like the right format other than possibly the top name does look a bit like Tiffany Dell - a play on words maybe? Do you know when the race was?
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Old 3 Jun 2008, 09:35 (Ref:2218471)   #49
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Originally Posted by chunterer
Nice one Gregor! Looks like your dad was pressing on in his usual manner there then?!!

That red one is the 2nd Chris Hodgetts run car that he usually ran in the WTCC for Andrew Bagnall if memory serves me right. I think Tiff Needell might have been in the car at this round - I seem to recall some strange strategy where Chris started in one car, Tiff in the other then they swapped cars at pit stop time or something?
The red CHMS car was originally the car used by Alan Minshaw in 86 with his usual Demon Tweeks backing.

Yes, I'm sure you're right about Chris and Tiff doing the car swapping strategy at one of the 1-hour BTCC races- I definitely remember them doing that at one point, although I couldn't tell you which race without looking up the race results- don't have them to hand right now
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Old 3 Jun 2008, 17:58 (Ref:2218942)   #50
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Originally Posted by GBRM
Here you go. I don't know when the photos were taken other than it was round 10 of the championship in 1987 and Dad and Geoff finished 9th but unfortunately I haven't got any mags that cover it. I can't put my finger on who is driving the red car other than it's a BRDC member but possibly a ""works" car from the subtle differences.
Great pics Gregor- I've just looked up the results, and as you said, it's round 10, the 1-hour race at Oulton, and your dad and GK-S finished 9th/3rd in class.

The race was won by Mike Newman's 635, shared with Robert Speak, with the Dave Carvell/Jeff Allam Rover in 2nd

The Corolla is Hodgetts/Needell- or should that be Needell/Hodgetts...

As Chunterer said, CHMS turned up with a pair of cars and only two drivers. Chris started one, Tiff the other and they swapped over at the pitstop, taking a class 1-2, 3rd and 5th overall....I think the red no67 car finished 2nd in class to the white no66, but can't swear to that.....
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