Home  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides Veloce Books  
Related Sites: Classic Cars Monthly Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Historic Racing & Motorsport History > Motorsport History

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 28 Jul 2007, 12:06 (Ref:1975261)   #51
M-Kart
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Australia
Posts: 531
M-Kart should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Here's soemthing for you - Its an ex-Listerine BTCC E36, currently for sale, situated in Australia. (the picture is from the box of a model, so its not a current pic).

http://www.racecarsdirect.com/viewlisting.php?view=8262

Is it possible that this is (at least the shell, if not the running gear aswell) for the VLR car that Longhurst brought in for the AGP?
M-Kart is offline  
Quote
Old 28 Jul 2007, 13:33 (Ref:1975287)   #52
KA
Veteran
 
KA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 5,402
KA has a real shot at the podium!KA has a real shot at the podium!KA has a real shot at the podium!KA has a real shot at the podium!KA has a real shot at the podium!
...and the ex-Menu Prodrive car for sale in Norway

http://www.racecarsdirect.com/viewli...php?view=10922
KA is offline  
Quote
Old 28 Jul 2007, 22:32 (Ref:1975484)   #53
brown dog
Racer
 
brown dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 383
brown dog should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridbrown dog should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Excellent effort there KA- the only worrying thing is that is only 1987 so far, and that there was another 5 (or 6 in NZ and Australia) years of competition left in this car!
And as you said " With the sheer number of M3s built, this is probably going to be even bigger than the 635 thread."
The CiBiEmme car mentioned in the 1987 Bathurst annual that mark Petch bought is still here in NZ, part way through a restoration I believe. There are several other noteworthy M3's here, but this is the only 1987 car so I won't confuse things at this stage.
One of the Alpina cars was on their website until recently, on display in their showroom,still in original livery, but their website seems to have been changed and I cannot find the pic any more.
brown dog is offline  
Quote
Old 28 Jul 2007, 22:56 (Ref:1975491)   #54
brown dog
Racer
 
brown dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 383
brown dog should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridbrown dog should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by KA
There were a number of privateer cars which appeared in a race or two- none ran a full season
  • Garage Mirabeau (F)- 1 car at Spa
  • Kuelker SC Team (HY). Josef Cserkuti's car, famously the only M3 not DQ'd at Monza, did the first two races, then returned at Brno. According to a contemporary Hungarian magazine interview on Frank's site, Cserkuti then concentrated on the European Hillclimb Championship
  • MK Motorsport (D)- 1 car at Spa
  • AMK Motorsport (CZ)- a single car at about 3 races
  • Racing Services International- 2 cars at Nurburgring ,Spa and Brno
  • Schwaben Motorsport (D) Thomas von Lowis of Menar- I think he mainly ran the DTM, but did the 'Ring and TT, then made the trip down under for Calder & Wellington
  • Garage du Bac (F)- 1 car at Dijon and Spa
  • JMS Racing (F)- 1 car Dijon & Spa
  • Vogelsang Racing/Valier Motorsport (D)- 1 car at the 'Ring. This was another DTM entry
  • Prodrive (GB). Frank Sytner's BTCC car appeared at the TT
  • Heribert Werginz (A)- single car at the 'Ring, Brno and TT
  • Milos Bychl (CZ) 1 car at the 'Ring
  • Jens Winther/Castrol Denmark (DK) Longtime Danish sportscar privateer Winther ran an M3 at the TT
  • Autobeaurex? (J) one car at Fuji for Will Hoy/Haruto Yanagida
Additionally,the privateer Toni Fischhaber scored points at the opening round in Monza.
brown dog is offline  
Quote
Old 29 Jul 2007, 00:48 (Ref:1975513)   #55
brown dog
Racer
 
brown dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 383
brown dog should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridbrown dog should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by KA
The Australian/NZ cars, seen at Bathurst, Wellington & Calder
  • JPS Team BMW (AUS)- 2 new cars at Bathurst and Calder. One of the original cars also went to Bathurst as a spare. Tony Longhurst also shared an M3 with Altfrid Heger at Wellington. Was this a JPS car, one of the German cars, or a local NZ entry?
  • Archibald Motorsport/Cardinal Network (NZ)- 1 ex-JPS car at Bathurst & Wellington
  • John Sax (NZ)- 1 car at Wellington
.
No M3's at Wellington in 1987, Longhurst drove a Gp.A 325i in JPS colours, and Jim Richards was in a JPS 635i, which led for some time.
brown dog is offline  
Quote
Old 29 Jul 2007, 09:05 (Ref:1975635)   #56
KA
Veteran
 
KA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 5,402
KA has a real shot at the podium!KA has a real shot at the podium!KA has a real shot at the podium!KA has a real shot at the podium!KA has a real shot at the podium!
Quote:
Originally Posted by brown dog
Additionally,the privateer Toni Fischhaber scored points at the opening round in Monza.
Yes- he shared the Hungarian-entered Kuelker SC Team car with Josef Cserkuti and Andraas Szabo
KA is offline  
Quote
Old 29 Jul 2007, 09:29 (Ref:1975650)   #57
KA
Veteran
 
KA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 5,402
KA has a real shot at the podium!KA has a real shot at the podium!KA has a real shot at the podium!KA has a real shot at the podium!KA has a real shot at the podium!
Quote:
Originally Posted by brown dog
No M3's at Wellington in 1987, Longhurst drove a Gp.A 325i in JPS colours, and Jim Richards was in a JPS 635i, which led for some time.
Was that at the Nissan Mobil 500 in January, or the WTCC round in October?

WTCC round results:
http://homepage.mac.com/frank_de_jon...ellington.html
KA is offline  
Quote
Old 29 Jul 2007, 09:42 (Ref:1975665)   #58
brown dog
Racer
 
brown dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 383
brown dog should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridbrown dog should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Aaah, my mistake, forgot there were two races in 1987!...... That was the January race where Longhurst was in a 325i and Richards was in a 635i. Went to a lot of these races, and was watching some old video footage of the 1987 race- forgot that there was two that year! Those were fantastic races, such a mixture of cars, many capable of winning.
brown dog is offline  
Quote
Old 29 Jul 2007, 12:24 (Ref:1975740)   #59
KA
Veteran
 
KA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 5,402
KA has a real shot at the podium!KA has a real shot at the podium!KA has a real shot at the podium!KA has a real shot at the podium!KA has a real shot at the podium!
Don't suppose you've got any video or pics from the Wellington WTCC round?

I'm puzzled by the M3 entries, particularly the Longhurst/Heger car. I can't figure out whether this was Longhurst joining one of the European cars, or Heger and Longhurst in a locally-entered car. From the results listed in the link I posted, the European M3 lineups at Wellington were:
  • Roland Ratzenberger/Markus Oestreich (Schnitzer)
  • Roberto Ravaglia/Emanuele Pirro (Schnitzer)
  • Annette Meeuvissen/Mercedes Stermitz (Schnitzer)
  • Winni Vogt/Olivier Grouillard (Bigazzi)
  • Thomas von Loewis of Menar/Prince Leopold von Bayern (Schwaben)
The 'local' cars were
  • Graeme Lorimer/John Sax
  • Trevor Crowe/Jim Richards
I'm guessing Crowe/Richards were in the Archibalds ex-JPS car which ran at Bathurst, Lorimer/Sax in John Sax's car, and JPS didn't make the trip to NZ, releasing their drivers to other teams

The two M3s from Bathurst obviously missing from the Wellington results are the CiBiEmme car sold to Mark Petch, and the Brabham/Fangio BMW Motorsport car run by Schnitzer or CiBiEmme. I wonder if Longhurst/Heger were in either of these cars, maybe the ex-CiBiEmme car entered by Petch?
KA is offline  
Quote
Old 29 Jul 2007, 12:55 (Ref:1975748)   #60
David Towe
Veteran
 
David Towe's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
England
Glenmore Park NSW
Posts: 1,279
David Towe should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Perhaps you can heklp me brown dog, I'm told my car was second at Wellington in 1989, can you verify this? John Sax Racing.
David Towe is offline  
__________________
"The past is knowledge, the present our mistake, the future we always leave too late" Paul Weller (The Style Coulcil)
Quote
Old 29 Jul 2007, 21:01 (Ref:1975966)   #61
brown dog
Racer
 
brown dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 383
brown dog should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridbrown dog should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Hello David,
I went to this race, and memory tells me that Schnitzer came in #1 and #2. But as my memory has faded a bit, I had a quick look at some old video footage I have of that race, and it confirms what I thought. Schnitzer came in 1-2 with Ravaglia/Pirro in first car, and Soper/Giroix in second place. This is confirmed on Frank De Jong website, which lists the John Sax car finishing in 14th place.
http://homepage.mac.com/frank_de_jon...ellington.html
Another thread going which you will be interested in:
http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...+a+bmw+chassis
brown dog is offline  
Quote
Old 29 Jul 2007, 21:17 (Ref:1975977)   #62
brown dog
Racer
 
brown dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 383
brown dog should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridbrown dog should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Funny you ask, I have some footage of the Wellington races, and have just borrowed a pile more footage from a friend, which I am going to transfer to DVD in the next few weeks. Some of the quality is pretty average, but it still makes for an interesting watch! I went to a lot of these races, and they were just as exciting live as they were on TV, which can't be said about all motor racing today!
I don't know if there is anythng in there from the 1987 race(s) I will have to play it all to see.In addition, on that link you posted,Cecotto and Brancatelli were driving a CiBiEmme car,(which I can remember) but I cannot tell you for sure which cars Graeme Lorimer/John Sax and Trevor Crowe/Jim Richards were driving- perhaps David Towe can throw some light on this? I should be able to find out if the Mark Petch car ran there.

Last edited by brown dog; 29 Jul 2007 at 21:23.
brown dog is offline  
Quote
Old 30 Jul 2007, 01:41 (Ref:1976057)   #63
grelley
Rookie
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location:
New Zealand
Posts: 43
grelley should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I have M3-1-177 As far as I can ascertain, this was one of four originally supplied by BMW Germany to BMW France in parts at a cost of 220000 Euros. The car was modified beyond Group A for the French Super Tourism Championships and driven by Michel Ferte to second place in 1990 and 5th in 1991. At the end of 1991 the car was badly damaged and required a complete rebuild which included a new bodyshell and all the latest homoligated parts. I do not know what the chassis number of the original car was. I know of a Prodrive car here which also has a M3-1 Chassis number somewhere in the mid 140's if I remember correctly. I also have another M3 that did not use a M3-1-XXXX chassis number which was built in 1990 by Bervid Motorsport in Hungary and driven by Josef Venc. It raced in one DTM race meeting at Brno in 1990 as well as winning the Czech Touring Car Championship in 1990.

Last edited by grelley; 30 Jul 2007 at 01:43.
grelley is offline  
Quote
Old 30 Jul 2007, 03:53 (Ref:1976075)   #64
Adrian B
Rookie
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 49
Adrian B should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by racer69
This is a pic from the cover of Auto Action the week following the event. The win of Roberto Ravaglia/Emmanuele Pirro started a run of 4 straight Wellington 500 wins for Pirro.



I'd be interested to know the European history of this car before the 1988 Wellington 500. Did the car go back after?
Thanks racer69, thats the only pic I've been able to find also.
The car was built in Feb 1988.
Raced in ETCC 1988, drivers were Ravaglia, Giroix,Pirro,Van De Poele,Grohs,Oestreich.
Then sent to NZ, won '88 Wellington/Pirro&Ravaglia, 2nd at Pukekohe/VandePoele, then Fuji, Japan/DNF/Heger&Pirro, then a win at Macau/Nov 88/Altfrid Heger.
Car returned to Europe, sold Feb 1989 to France.
Adrian B is offline  
Quote
Old 30 Jul 2007, 05:02 (Ref:1976088)   #65
brown dog
Racer
 
brown dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 383
brown dog should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridbrown dog should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
just got a thread going over here for chassis numbers, it would be great if you could put some details here on your car:
http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=98823
A HUGE task, but we are trying to get together all the chassis # of the "works" built cars.
brown dog is offline  
Quote
Old 30 Jul 2007, 05:05 (Ref:1976089)   #66
brown dog
Racer
 
brown dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 383
brown dog should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridbrown dog should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Stephen,
just got a thread going over here for chassis numbers, it would be great if you could put some details here on your car:
http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=98823
A HUGE task, but we are trying to get together all the chassis # of the "works" built cars.
brown dog is offline  
Quote
Old 30 Jul 2007, 05:20 (Ref:1976092)   #67
Tony C
Racer
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Australia
Gold Coast
Posts: 295
Tony C should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by M-Kart
Here's soemthing for you - Its an ex-Listerine BTCC E36, currently for sale, situated in Australia. (the picture is from the box of a model, so its not a current pic).

http://www.racecarsdirect.com/viewlisting.php?view=8262

Is it possible that this is (at least the shell, if not the running gear aswell) for the VLR car that Longhurst brought in for the AGP?

This car was owned by Paul Pickett as mentioned elsewhere in this thread. It was never used by Longhurst.

I would like to find the car that was converted by Longhurst, if it ever happened? I cant remember hearing anything about it at the time it was upposed to have happened.

Most of the B&H stuff was sold to indonesea, one car to Cameron McLean which he put to good use.

Maybe Campbell Little could shed some light, if he reads the forum. I think he was at B&H at that time.
Tony C is offline  
Quote
Old 30 Jul 2007, 05:41 (Ref:1976096)   #68
William Dale Jr
Veteran
 
William Dale Jr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Australia
Townsville, North Queensland
Posts: 1,225
William Dale Jr should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by KA
I wonder if Longhurst/Heger were in either of these cars, maybe the ex-CiBiEmme car entered by Petch?
Longhurst/Heger were definitely in a factory BMW Motorsport car, almost certainly the Fangio/Brabham car from Bathurst, whilst Branca and Cecotto were running the same CiBiEmme car now owned by Mark Petch. In fact, that car would win the second Nissan Mobil race at Pukekohe the following weekend. Meanwhile, the car David Towe has now is the Lorimer/Sax car from that race.

This may be incorrect, but I seem to remember two M3s arriving in Australia after Bathurst in time for the Calder WTCC event. One was the Thomas von Loewis of Menar/Prince Leopold von Bayern car, but I suspect that the other was to replace the chassis savaged by Ravaglia on top of the Mountain (even though that chassis was repaired by TAFE and started the race with Oestereich/Ratzenberger/Heger). Who used this car - if this happened at all - I'm not sure.
William Dale Jr is offline  
__________________
"Our traction control was kinda how much your last crash was still hurting you." - Kevin Schwantz
Quote
Old 30 Jul 2007, 10:16 (Ref:1976261)   #69
ian beckett
Racer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 274
ian beckett should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
At the Wellington WTCC race in '87 Heger and Longhurst were in the second CiBiEmme car #41 backed by Lockwood,they finished 7th.
ian beckett is offline  
Quote
Old 30 Jul 2007, 10:39 (Ref:1976274)   #70
ian beckett
Racer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 274
ian beckett should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
To Grelley:My notes indicate that the Ferte/Horizon car was in more modified Supertourisme trim and certainly in '91 was fitted with a 2.7 litre engine.Ferte did indeed come 5th in that years series but I have no record of the car having had a big crash that would require a re-shell despite having all that seasons results.I note however that the team did not race at Ledenon or Nogaro so there could have been a testing crash which could explain things? At the end of the season,the team disbanded and BMW France now ran a two car team for Ferte and Jean-Pierre Malcher.There cars were new and built to full DTM spec'.I know that the car you say is the ex-Ferte/Horizon car was for sale for some time in Switzerland in September '05 for 57,000Euros at www.carclassic.com Is this where you acquired it from? The car was exactly as it had raced back in '91.
ian beckett is offline  
Quote
Old 30 Jul 2007, 11:15 (Ref:1976286)   #71
ian beckett
Racer
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 274
ian beckett should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
For Grelley: Your second car is a little more problematic!! The Bervid Motorsport team was from Czeckoslovakia (now the Czeck Republic) not Hungary.They ran a car for Vaclav Bervid himself while at the same time Josef Venc (also Czeck) ran a second team which I have always thought were completely separate.The starting date you give for this car is incorrect as there was no Brno DTM race in '90 and the first record of either Bervid or Venc racing an M3 did not occur until Bervid drove a newly built Group A car at Spa'91,#3,9th,in Bastos trim.He also ran a car(I do not think it was this one) in the '91 Czeck series,he was champion. I do not think either of these teams cars were originally self built but were in fact bought from other teams and then prepared by them.Venc did not start racing an M3 until '92. There is also possible confusion in that a third Czeck based team had started running M3's earlier.That was the Vanicek team and they tended to lease cars on a race by race basis to whoever came up with the cash! If you can tell me anything more about this car,perhaps where you got it from or any paint details I should be able to give you more info'. Ian.
ian beckett is offline  
Quote
Old 30 Jul 2007, 11:38 (Ref:1976307)   #72
brown dog
Racer
 
brown dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 383
brown dog should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridbrown dog should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by brown dog
Hello David,
I went to this race, and memory tells me that Schnitzer came in #1 and #2. But as my memory has faded a bit, I had a quick look at some old video footage I have of that race, and it confirms what I thought. Schnitzer came in 1-2 with Ravaglia/Pirro in first car, and Soper/Giroix in second place. This is confirmed on Frank De Jong website, which lists the John Sax car finishing in 14th place.
http://homepage.mac.com/frank_de_jon...ellington.html
Another thread going which you will be interested in:
http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...+a+bmw+chassis
Just watched footage of most of the race, car 57 which was the John Sax/Graeme Gulson car ended up park quite heavily into a concrete slab, and was dragged away by a tow truck about halfway through the race.Looked Australian built as it had Simmons wheels on it like yours. Kayne Scott was in another M3,with John Sorenson, finished 14th according to Frank DeJongs site. Another Australian built car ended up as a BMW "Art Car" which is on tour currently in NZ- going to see it in a week so will take some pics of it.

Last edited by brown dog; 30 Jul 2007 at 11:42.
brown dog is offline  
Quote
Old 30 Jul 2007, 12:06 (Ref:1976336)   #73
David Towe
Veteran
 
David Towe's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
England
Glenmore Park NSW
Posts: 1,279
David Towe should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Have I go the year wrong, could it have been 88? I have no info re the Wellington races to check this.
David Towe is offline  
__________________
"The past is knowledge, the present our mistake, the future we always leave too late" Paul Weller (The Style Coulcil)
Quote
Old 30 Jul 2007, 20:14 (Ref:1976658)   #74
MalcolmC
Racer
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
New Zealand
Down there a bit
Posts: 117
MalcolmC should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by William Dale Jr
I suspect that the other was to replace the chassis savaged by Ravaglia on top of the Mountain (even though that chassis was repaired by TAFE and started the race with Oestereich/Ratzenberger/Heger). Who used this car - if this happened at all - I'm not sure.
I recall reading in either 'Wheels' or 'Modern Motor' magazine at the time that the TAFE repaired shell was gifted to the TAFE crew after the '87 Bathurst race. The shell was then destined for the Bathurst museum. I've visited the museum a couple of times but never seen the car there.
MalcolmC is offline  
Quote
Old 30 Jul 2007, 21:15 (Ref:1976710)   #75
grelley
Rookie
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location:
New Zealand
Posts: 43
grelley should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Ian, re the Ferte Horizon car, yes the car was the one advertised on the Swiss website. It was Jean-Pierre Malcher who apparently crashed the car. I received confirmation of this from Pipo Moteurs as they aslo rebuilt the 2.7 litre engine at this time. Certainly going by the condition of the bodyshell it appears that it has not been raced since. Re the Czech car, it was built in Prague by Bervid Motorsport, and was a sister car to the one built for Vaclav Bervid. When I purchased the car I checked on Josef Venc and it stated that he was Czech Touring car champion in 1990 in an M3 so I put 2 and 2 together. They did build a DTM car for the following season in which Venc competed, but I am sure they did the race at Brno in 1990 in this car. It was painted the same as his DTM car, white with light blue stripes along the side. Although it is an Evo Sport 2.5 litre, it uses the earlier Group A suspension set up.
grelley is offline  
Quote
Reply

Tags
atcc, bigazzi, bmw m3, btcc, cibiemme, dtm, e30, etcc, frank gardner, group a, linder, prodrive, ravaglia, schnitzer

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Will Hoy's Securicor E30 M3 johnw Motorsport History 16 18 Jul 2015 11:38
BMW M3 E30 - Group A/DTM 1987-92 brown dog The Chassis History Archive 146 28 Aug 2014 19:32
RE: BMW M3 E36 Group N, looking for History ALong Motorsport History 5 24 Sep 2013 21:12
E30 M3 on a Diet... Highside Racing Technology 5 4 Aug 2006 15:34
[Online] e30 m3 screensaver samfre Armchair Enthusiast 2 10 Aug 2004 07:12


All times are GMT. The time now is 14:05.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2021 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2021-2022 Grant MacDonald. All Rights Reserved.