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Old 3 May 2016, 11:36 (Ref:3638086)   #51
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I don't know, perhaps because he feels that he was wronged in the previous race and that he wanted to prove a point?
If that is the case and it is a very big If, he has no place on the race track. I personally think he over reached himself, trying to be too clever and unfortunately ruined Vettel's race and messed up his team mate's.
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Old 3 May 2016, 12:59 (Ref:3638110)   #52
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Kvyat made a great move in China and thought he could do it again. Yes he badly misjudged the situation in Russia and should have been penalised for his mistake.

But, in the scheme of things was this really worse than a driver running up the rear of competitor while under the safety car (Japan 2007) or taking out a car stopped at the red light in pit lane (Canada 2008)?

Following Canada at the French GP:

"Hamilton and Rosberg were both given ten place grid penalties for the French Grand Prix, meaning that whatever their qualifying position, they could start no better than 11th."

Japan 2007

"Following the race, Sebastian Vettel faced a 10-place penalty for the next race in Shanghai, China, for causing the collision with Mark Webber which put both drivers out of the race, but this punishment was reduced to a reprimand. When new evidence was presented to the FIA, it began an investigation of Lewis Hamilton for dangerous driving and causing the collision himself. Hamilton was leading the race right in front of Webber, before suddenly braking and forcing Webber to follow suit lest he be penalised for overtaking behind the safety car; the collision occurred when Vettel's car ran into the back of Webber. Hamilton might have faced either disqualification or a grid penalty for the next race,[5] but the FIA decided not to impose any penalty.[6]"


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Canadian_Grand_Prix
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Japanese_Grand_Prix

Last edited by wnut; 3 May 2016 at 13:07.
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Old 3 May 2016, 15:51 (Ref:3638161)   #53
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I agree some of the comments about Kyvat are OTT. We are now hearing people saying his move in China was out of order. Leave it out, why didn't they say it at the time. Indeed I seem to remember a certain young German getting involved in a few unneesscary incidents most notably with his own teammate
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Old 3 May 2016, 16:03 (Ref:3638165)   #54
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1st corner bunching. Accidents happen at a hell of a lot of races at the first corner. DK's fault. No need to sack anyone.

The second accident was because Vettel slowed suddenly whilst on the racing line in a corner that everyone else was going flat out. DK would have to had some kind of Russel Grant premonition to know that was going to happen, or he would have had to slam his anchors on in about a quarter of a second.

It was right that DK was penalized, but it was not exactly a Pastor Maldonado or Roman Grosjean (from 3 years ago) type of knucklehead move.
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Old 3 May 2016, 17:41 (Ref:3638193)   #55
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The second accident was because Vettel slowed suddenly whilst on the racing line in a corner that everyone else was going flat out. DK would have to had some kind of Russel Grant premonition to know that was going to happen, or he would have had to slam his anchors on in about a quarter of a second.
Actually, I don't agree with that. Watch this video...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1T4YSilwLYw

... and pay attention of the position and speed differentials right before the collision of Kvyat in relation to ALL of the cars around him. Also note the relationship between Vettel and the (?) Williams to Vettel's left and whoever is in front of Vettel. They roughly match speed and they all slow except Kvyat.

So you would ask why did they slow? Well if you look at the track map, there is a bit of a short straight between turn 3 and 4. Turn 4 is a decreasing radius left hand sweeper. So everyone was in a drag race on that short straight after the turn 2/3 mess, but as they enter the start of turn 4 they come off the throttle a bit to maintain speed plus try to tuck in to the left vs trying to run on the outside of a long decreasing radius left hander. Kvyat just didn't lift like everyone else did. Which is also the same issue with turn one! Same mistake twice in quick succession. In my book, it was totally Kvyat's fault all around.

Richard

(Edit: Also... whoever was in front of Vettel and the Williams appeared to be a bit squirrely and they may have slowed a bit more or earlier plus the fact there was not much room on the left (for the Williams) or the right (for the Ferrari).)
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Old 3 May 2016, 17:51 (Ref:3638197)   #56
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How is the Kvyat incident different from the Grosjean incident and suspension following Spa in 2012?

"Grosjean has been involved in a number of first-lap incidents this year, but the one at Spa was the most serious as he collided with Lewis Hamilton and then took out Fernando Alonso at high speed at turn one. Following an investigation in to the incident the stewards ruled that Grosjean should be suspended for one race, and also imposed a €50,000 fine.

http://en.espnf1.com/fia/motorsport/...MGp1Q9DHPed.99
Apart from China, which is pretty much accepted as not his fault - there was a massive gap and he went for it, when else this year has Kvyat been involved in a "number of first-lap incidents this year". This is a genuine question and pests say not this year, but the last 12 months? However if we're going to try and show inconsistencies and train credibility then let's at least try to compare comparable things.
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Kvyat drove into Vettel on purpose twice. He needs to have his super license revoked
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Why would he do that?
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I don't know, perhaps because he feels that he was wronged in the previous race and that he wanted to prove a point?
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More like Kvyat was being a smartass and thought that he could enhance his reputation by pulling an impossible move off against a four time WDC who he'd already made smart remarks to regarding racing in the previous GP.
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The impossible move of driving straight through a Ferrari? It didn't really look like he was trying to avoid, nor did it look like he put much effort into slowing down properly
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Yup, just going much too fast in the hope that he could jump into a non existent gap like he did in China, where Vettel jumped out the way and got involved with Kimi, this time Vettel could not even see Kvyat and Kvyat totally misjudged it 3 consecutive times!

Dear Danii, its called stacking and happens on the first lap of every race, guaranteed!
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If that is the case and it is a very big If, he has no place on the race track. I personally think he over reached himself, trying to be too clever and unfortunately ruined Vettel's race and messed up his team mate's.
As for "he did it on purpose". Really why? He didn't want to do well in his home race? It is very unlikely he would chose to do that. It was ineptitude, not intent. To suggest otherwise is, while easy to do on the internet, is borderline slander.

Last edited by Adam43; 3 May 2016 at 17:58.
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Old 3 May 2016, 19:17 (Ref:3638220)   #57
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Apart from China, which is pretty much accepted as not his fault - there was a massive gap and he went for it, when else this year has Kvyat been involved in a "number of first-lap incidents this year". This is a genuine question and pests say not this year, but the last 12 months? However if we're going to try and show inconsistencies and train credibility then let's at least try to compare comparable things.














As for "he did it on purpose". Really why? He didn't want to do well in his home race? It is very unlikely he would chose to do that. It was ineptitude, not intent. To suggest otherwise is, while easy to do on the internet, is borderline slander.
It doesn't really matter if he did it on purpose or if he's just *that* incompetent. Either way he needs to be heavily punished, what happened in Sochi was total bs. I'm not even a Vettel / Ferrari fan
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Old 3 May 2016, 19:57 (Ref:3638230)   #58
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Intent is incredibly important. Not least in being fair to him. If he purposely took some one out then it should be a long ban.

If he made a significant mistake (braked too late and misjudged his closing speed in the first lap melee) I'm fine with a penalty. However if he is consistently doing this then a time out, like with Grosjean a few years back, might be appropriate. I'm not recalling anything else significant recently, although I may have forgotten.
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Old 3 May 2016, 20:33 (Ref:3638243)   #59
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It doesn't really matter if he did it on purpose or if he's just *that* incompetent. Either way he needs to be heavily punished, what happened in Sochi was total bs. I'm not even a Vettel / Ferrari fan
If you are going to heavily punish someone for a first lap incident, you are going to set a very dangerous precedent. It was an accident that also ruined Kvyat's own race as well remember. Vettels done worse in the past.
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Old 3 May 2016, 23:57 (Ref:3638284)   #60
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Funny how Kvyat gets a ten second stop and go while Gutierrez only got a drive through. Gutierrez took out Hulkenberg instantly and caused huge carnage at the back while Kvyat took out Vettel only. Yet it's Kvyat that received the most severe penalty. What, because Vettel is louder? Or because the race of a former champion is worth several backmarkers ?

I'm not saying that Kvyat doesn't deserve that. Just a bit more consistency in the enforcement process. No preferable treatment to WDCs. That's it.

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Old 4 May 2016, 01:39 (Ref:3638307)   #61
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Following Canada at the French GP:

"Hamilton and Rosberg were both given ten place grid penalties for the French Grand Prix, meaning that whatever their qualifying position, they could start no better than 11th."

Japan 2007

"Following the race, Sebastian Vettel faced a 10-place penalty for the next race in Shanghai, China, for causing the collision with Mark Webber which put both drivers out of the race, but this punishment was reduced to a reprimand. When new evidence was presented to the FIA, it began an investigation of Lewis Hamilton for dangerous driving and causing the collision himself. Hamilton was leading the race right in front of Webber, before suddenly braking and forcing Webber to follow suit lest he be penalised for overtaking behind the safety car; the collision occurred when Vettel's car ran into the back of Webber. Hamilton might have faced either disqualification or a grid penalty for the next race,[5] but the FIA decided not to impose any penalty.[6]"


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Canadian_Grand_Prix
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Japanese_Grand_Prix
Yeah, that's my point. Both of those incidents were worse (more serious errors) than Kvyats so calling for a similar grid penalty or race ban is over the top.

Last edited by dsg; 4 May 2016 at 01:44. Reason: clarification
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Old 4 May 2016, 09:54 (Ref:3638406)   #62
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Kvyat caused two collisions within 5 seconds ... unbelievable levels of incompetency
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Old 5 May 2016, 01:08 (Ref:3638629)   #63
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Kvyat caused two collisions within 5 seconds ... unbelievable levels of incompetency
True, and yet still not as bad as the other incidents.
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Old 5 May 2016, 01:49 (Ref:3638642)   #64
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Kvyat made a great move in China and thought he could do it again. Yes he badly misjudged the situation in Russia and should have been penalised for his mistake.

But, in the scheme of things was this really worse than a driver running up the rear of competitor while under the safety car (Japan 2007) or taking out a car stopped at the red light in pit lane (Canada 2008)?
Your assertion that Vettel hit Webber behind the safety car in Japan should have been penalised, was penalised and then set aside by the court of appeals when the incident was found to have been caused by Hamilton who had braked unexpectedly, but was not involved, so no penalty for Vettel.

The accident RoGro was suspended for was not nearly clearly his fault.

Kvyat however drove into the back of Vettel, then repeated virtually exactly the same accident at the next corner that wrecked Vettel's car.
Does he not learn anything?

For this he receives one discounted 10 second stop go.
Sorry, insufficient.
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Old 5 May 2016, 02:33 (Ref:3638650)   #65
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Your assertion that Vettel hit Webber behind the safety car in Japan should have been penalised, was penalised and then set aside by the court of appeals when the incident was found to have been caused by Hamilton who had braked unexpectedly, but was not involved, so no penalty for Vettel.

The accident RoGro was suspended for was not nearly clearly his fault.

Kvyat however drove into the back of Vettel, then repeated virtually exactly the same accident at the next corner that wrecked Vettel's car.
Does he not learn anything?

For this he receives one discounted 10 second stop go.
Sorry, insufficient.
If Hamilton braking unexpectedly whilst under the safety car is reasonable and excusable then Vettel lifting off unexpectedly in a section of the track where cars would normally accelerate during green flag racing does not justify placing the full blame on Kyvat.

I agree the first crash was his fault and a drive through was warranted but much like the Japan incident there are mitigating circumstances for the 2nd hit. I thought a 10 second stop go was somewhat harsh but calls for a grid penalty or race ban is too much.
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Old 5 May 2016, 02:49 (Ref:3638654)   #66
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I'll leave you with this:

Red Bull could swap Verstappen and Kvyat as early as Spanish GP.

“Braking too late once and hitting another car would be acceptable in front of his home crowd, but this doesn't apply for the second crash,” said Marko.
[I]“It's a pity because he did not only ruin Vettel's race and [Daniel] Ricciardo's race, but also his own race. He had to do an extra stop. It was a day of disaster for Red Bull.
http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/re...ish-gp-733475/

Apparently Dr Helmut isn't buying the no fault line anyway.
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Old 5 May 2016, 03:49 (Ref:3638667)   #67
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No one is buying the no fault line.
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Old 5 May 2016, 11:18 (Ref:3638753)   #68
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I think it's time to move Verstappen up to RB, and I mean now, not 2017. Verstappens been driving like a veteran so far this year, well ahead of Sainz.
Called it!

I mean I sort of feel sorry for Kyvat, he can be fast. But at the same time he hadn't really earned the call up to F1. He had a completely average season of GP3, but it just so happened that everyone else in GP3 that year also had average seasons so he won the title by default. And only after Facu Regalia butchered the last two races. When Regalia, Tio Ellinas, Conor Daly are the leading drivers, you know it wasn't a strong lineup that year for GP3.

Mitch Evans, Alex Lynn and Esteban Ocon certainly haven't been called up to F1 and they've had much competition in the years they won. Ocon might be yet though.

Yet suddenly Kyvats thrust into F1 without a single GP2 race under his belt, while since then Vandoorne, Frijns and Magnussen sit at home. Apart from a few odd races, Kyvat can't match Ricciardo. He showed good form in equalling Vergne, but to be honest since he left F1 and showed up at Formula E, Vergne's been not as good as I was expecting. Perhaps he never was good enough for F1.

Still, only RB would dump a driver like this after two crashes. But I think Verstappen will be better at RB, I'm excited to see Ricciardo vs Verstappen. Sainz vs Kyvat will also be interesting, since up until GP3 Sainz pretty much had the measure of Kyvat throughout their rise through the formulas. It was just a few lucky races, and Kyvat got the F1 call, Sainz had to wait and prove himself in WSR.

Prediction: Sainz Jr will prove faster than Kyvat, who by 2018 will join Vergne, Buemi, Alguesuari...
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Old 5 May 2016, 12:10 (Ref:3638770)   #69
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I mean I sort of feel sorry for Kyvat, he can be fast. But at the same time he hadn't really earned the call up to F1. He had a completely average season of GP3, but it just so happened that everyone else in GP3 that year also had average seasons so he won the title by default. And only after Facu Regalia butchered the last two races. When Regalia, Tio Ellinas, Conor Daly are the leading drivers, you know it wasn't a strong lineup that year for GP3.

Mitch Evans, Alex Lynn and Esteban Ocon certainly haven't been called up to F1 and they've had much competition in the years they won. Ocon might be yet though.
You realize almost exactly the same is true for Verstappen? Who of his opposition has been called up to F1? Ocon might be, someday.

IMO, quite similarly to Kvyat, Verstappen can be fast and spectacular. But he also loses it sometimes (Monaco 2015, Sepang 2016).
He lacks race experience, not speed.

I'm convinced he can do probably a better job than Kvyat, but he'll need to be careful and patient, for he is capable to do a Kvyat-style Sochi manouvre (the first hit) too.
And patience doesn't really seem to be one his virtues, nor one of Red Bulls.
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Old 5 May 2016, 13:34 (Ref:3638786)   #70
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Called it!
.

So slowly.
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Old 5 May 2016, 14:52 (Ref:3638804)   #71
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... then Vettel lifting off unexpectedly in a section of the track where cars would normally accelerate during green flag racing does not justify placing the full blame on Kyvat.
Its a moot point now, but look at my earlier post on this topic. Video from Kyvat's car clearly shows multiple cars slowing and him not. Likely due to a combo of entry to decreasing radius turn four and that the car that was directly ahead of Vettel and the Williams to his left having a slight "moment" and they may have lifted to avoid. I would expect that first lap on cold tires is exactly when you should be expecting odd things to happen. Kyvat just made a two bad mistakes in quick succession. It was likely the last straw for RBR.

I have nothing against Kyvat. As others have said here and in another thread, both he and Verstappen are young and lacking in overall experience. If you are in a top team and unproven, then the spotlight is on you more than maybe others. It might be unfair, but its sink or swim. How Kyvat handles the demotion to STR will define his future F1 career.

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Old 5 May 2016, 17:02 (Ref:3638865)   #72
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Its a moot point now, but look at my earlier post on this topic. Video from Kyvat's car clearly shows multiple cars slowing and him not. Likely due to a combo of entry to decreasing radius turn four and that the car that was directly ahead of Vettel and the Williams to his left having a slight "moment" and they may have lifted to avoid. I would expect that first lap on cold tires is exactly when you should be expecting odd things to happen. Kyvat just made a two bad mistakes in quick succession. It was likely the last straw for RBR.

I have nothing against Kyvat. As others have said here and in another thread, both he and Verstappen are young and lacking in overall experience. If you are in a top team and unproven, then the spotlight is on you more than maybe others. It might be unfair, but its sink or swim. How Kyvat handles the demotion to STR will define his future F1 career.

Richard
Verstappen's been promoted to RBR and Kvyat's demoted to STR.

http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/124125
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Old 5 May 2016, 21:34 (Ref:3638971)   #73
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It was likely the last straw for RBR.
It seems that where Red Bull is concerned, there is only one straw. They are a notably ruthless bunch of people.
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Old 5 May 2016, 23:09 (Ref:3638991)   #74
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It seems that where Red Bull is concerned, there is only one straw. They are a notably ruthless bunch of people.
Must be all that Taurine.
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Old 6 May 2016, 01:10 (Ref:3639010)   #75
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I don't think the swap would've happened if Verstappen wasn't a special talent. It'll be fascinating to see how both drivers fare but Kyvat's confidence cannot but take a whacking.
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