Costs...

[driftwood]

circuit owners are greedy nd race clubs too dumb to realis ethey should cancell bookings run less meetings
i rent property when i cant get a tenant after 3 weeks cos market has changed i drop rent10% and hey bingo bum in seat rent in pocket and i roll on till tenancy expires either renew lease take teh $$ or let again tyr for more money if it fails after 3 weeks drop rent better to have 90% in pocket now than try to get the full monty 6 weeks later!
the sooner clubs realise we are not spending money the fatsret they will realise they are loosing money running these events
i have 6 race cars all sitting in garage no spare money to run them as much as it irritates me i have to be realistic on the costings v income and other outgoings

[Redracer77]

Originally Posted by kartingdad

3 good races and they are shot?

Qually and a dry race and thats the edge taken off them. Maybe good for a couple of test sessions after that - no point pounding round trying to set the car up to accommodate worn out tyres imho.

It's a hard fact of life, new tyres are faster. They then reach a plateau for about 50 laps at a lower level, then chuck them.

You could use tyres with a high concrete factor built into them, but you might as well go and race fairground go karts for the grip you will get.

Even if the tyres lasted longer, the newer the tyre, the faster it is.

And as for using remoulds, well thats degenerating into banger racing I'm afraid.

The most effective way to cut costs are :

Cut entry fees.

Reduce champ reg fees. (why do you need a fee to register for a championship? Hardly a massive cost in time and cost to work out points. A spreadsheet will do it all for you anyway.)

Have double headers on the same day and always the day after a test day. On two occasions this year we have had testing on a friday and racing on a sunday, costing £100's in accommodation. The donington meeting coming up in June has testing on the Thursday and racing on a Sunday. Barmy.

Lastly, and most cost effective, would be for the 'organisers' to actively promote the meetings to encourage larger spectator attendances. Done in conjunction with the circuit owners, any gate takings could be used to cut competitor entries (rather than increase the organising clubs profits). This would encourage larger numbers of competitors and so on..

Unfortunately, it would appear that it is easier and more convenient not to promote race meetings on that basis when the competitors are the immediate and almost willing cash cow.

I know its been said hundreds of times before, but once more can't hurt...

I thought you were talking about the 750mc Andy!!

If FF1600 changed to a new tyre that was half the price then the guys at the front would just buy 2 sets.....

If you all have an issue with the tyres then you need to reduce the amount you use.

Nobody complains in F4 about tyres and we have to pay £700 a set with VAT. But I suppose we have saved a load on the entries and the double headers on the same day so we can afford to

[diz]

Originally Posted by driftwood

The concept of a ff1600 association is not a bad concept maybe someone like Diz ( ian smith) would be logical port of call to discuss/run/ organise it with an annual or bi annual voted for panel of say 7 delegates from each region ie scotland NI oulton coombe brands and midland areas and 1 more delegate if anglesey /pembrey or eire want in on the committee

Below from the Champion of Brands thread currently running

Originally Posted by big belly bonzo

JEB, I know you read this. After what has gone on this week with the North West Championship please come and front a Champion of Oulton for us in 2010. Grids of 35+ for sure!!!

Well you certainly can't have it both ways.
I'm either the best thing since sliced bread, or "not worthy"
I'd vote for the former, but then I would, wouldn't I?

As for "come and front a Champion of Oulton for us in 2010. Grids of 35+ for sure!!!"
There were 44 today, so why would you want to reduce the numbers?

[SAMD]

Abject apologies and all that, but for those of us not privvy to the in's and out's of NW FF1600 politics we don't understand a word Diz.

[diz]

Originally Posted by SAMD

Abject apologies and all that, but for those of us not privvy to the in's and out's of NW FF1600 politics we don't understand a word Diz.

1. I'm being touted in this thread as the type of bloke to run a drivers club for FF1600

2. On the Champion of Brands thread JEB [who IMHO is a better bet than me] is being touted to come and front a Champion of Oulton for us in 2010. Grids of 35+ for sure!!! [to which I mentioned there were 44 cars at Oulton today, so why build this up to achieve a lower number]

In point one, I'm supposed to be flavour of the month.

In point two I appear to need replacing, although I was in fact 'replaced' at the beginning of 2008. The latest holder of the NW role - although he looks at this forum - won't even consider postng on here - I wonder why.

At this point I fully understand what I meant.

3. As for "those of us not privvy to the in's and out's of NW FF1600 politics"

As far as I can see, the happenings in the last week do not reflect on the North West, it was just a mix up re timetabling and various peoples views on the matter. Everybody seemed quite happy today.

[kartingdad]

DIz,

Perhaps you could let us know why there is a variation in entry fees for different classes?

Ta

KD

[diz]

Andy,

I don't understand the question, but give me a ring to discuss.
I don't want to get embroiled on here, as whatever is said on any subject, it usually ends up as a slanging match.
I really do try to distance myself from it all nowadays, but old habits die hard.

[Shoestring]

I am sorry but why do things have to be discussed in private!

We are the competitors (hopefully) so why as the man said can the difference in entry fees not be discussed on here?

It is probably all this secret back door stuff that has resulted in Avon retaining the exclusivity on tyres for instance all these years.

Open and honest communication please.

I started this thread and it is heartwarming to see that our concerns on costs are not in the minority.
My view is that it is time for radical change or die.

[kartingdad]

Look at the different costs here: http://www.brscc.co.uk/race-entries-2.html

There seems to quite a large variation on entry fees there. Having said that the ff1600's seem to do a bit better than some though.

IMHO the best way to easily cut costs would be for double headers to be on the same day. Big saving on accommodation/food etc. Also make testing preceding day to race, unlike next Donny meeting which is test on thursday, race on Sunday, meaning car (and various personnel) have to be transported home and back again. Bonkers.

Absolutely uneccesary waste of time and money. Not only is it the money, but just a waste of time. The last Snett meeting meant hanging round from friday testing until the sunday for the racing.

[diz]

Originally Posted by Shoestring

I am sorry but why do things have to be discussed in private!

We are the competitors (hopefully) so why as the man said can the difference in entry fees not be discussed on here?

It is probably all this secret back door stuff that has resulted in Avon retaining the exclusivity on tyres for instance all these years.

Open and honest communication please.

I started this thread and it is heartwarming to see that our concerns on costs are not in the minority.
My view is that it is time for radical change or die.

I am not BRSCC, so why not ask them direct. You can ring them or email them and get the answers you want.
Forums just end up as a platform for slagging off various subjects by people who are by and large anonymous and bask in that status.
I might know you, then again I might not.

[diz]

Originally Posted by kartingdad

Look at the different costs here: http://www.brscc.co.uk/race-entries-2.html

There seems to quite a large variation on entry fees there. Having said that the ff1600's seem to do a bit better than some though.

IMHO the best way to easily cut costs would be for double headers to be on the same day. Big saving on accommodation/food etc. Also make testing preceding day to race, unlike next Donny meeting which is test on thursday, race on Sunday, meaning car (and various personnel) have to be transported home and back again. Bonkers.

Absolutely uneccesary waste of time and money. Not only is it the money, but just a waste of time. The last Snett meeting meant hanging round from friday testing until the sunday for the racing.

Ah I see, different race classes. I thought you meant classes within FF1600.
As I mention in the previous post, ask the BRSCC, or the other organising clubs directly.

Donny testing is down to the circuit, not the club. Take Oulton, you are used to Friday test and Saturday race. Last weekend it was Friday test on Island and BARC race on Saturday on Island. then the BRSCC meeting on International circuit on Monday. Oulton have very limited Sunday noisy use, so no testing on Sunday. You'd be amazed how many people blamed the BRSCC for not being able to test on the International.
But one day meetings are seen as great by those who don't want to test, or can't afford to. I assume Shoestring would come into that category. Testing is not mandatory.

This waste of time and money might be seen by some as good practice for when you move up the ladder to bigger meetings and are required to be there for seemingly days on end.

[Flavio Galtieri]

For what it's worth, after all of 5 FF1600 meetings spread over 18 months, I would say the double-header on one day idea is the best and simplest way of reducing costs.

Those who test will test anyway whether they have to kick their heels on Saturday or not and those who don't or can't will save quite a significant sum.

The Snetterton format was great in my opinion - 1hr 15 minutes of competitive driving in a day and race two grid formed by the finishing order from race one. Had I not buggered up setting the rev limiter I would have really enjoyed that meeting....

As for tyres, well again we're still learning. We had to sit out the free practice at Anglesey because we only had one set and the left hand sides were completely shot at the end of that meeting.

Having said that the current set have done the wet M/S round at Silverstone and the Snetterton meeting and still appear to have plenty left. Will they do another 35 minutes at Donington? Might be stretching it I suppose.

Wouldn't changing the control tyre be an agonising business? It wouldn't be quick or easy surely. Having said that if anyone blags a load from a couple of tyre companies I'm sure we'd help you test them

[kartingdad]

Well we had a brand new set on for Snett. They did qually and both races and in our opinion are good for a bit of testing only now. And for what its worth, the Ray is a lot easier on its tyres than the two Swifts we have run in the past.

We'll have to put new tyres on for Donington as other people will as well.

And as for the testing situation, well you have to really don't you, especially if your guessing at ratios, setup etc at a new to you circuit.

[driftwood]

tyres can be controlled in a forumla in a number of ways
1 is to set a spec tyre size compound
2 is to bar code/ mark tyres per meeting to be used say 1 set for 3 meetings regardles of on the trot or 2 months later it will stop folk spending money willy nilly
3 testing well thats down to the driver pays yr money takes yr choice

4 DH meetings are better FVM so maybe 2 races in a day is the way forward less travel costs etc
5 The F3 tyre thngs is all blx it cost no more $$ to make International F3 tyre over club f3= someone is pulling yr trousers down and not having the courtesy of applying KY jelly
Old/used F3 tyres after 6 tyres pe rmeeting rule are only of use to bed in brake pads or use as a tyre barrier

the single biggest cost is the circuit hire followed by RACMSA TSL insurance recovery truck st johns ambulance thankfully the marshalls are free

as to F3 fuel cost all blx run super unleaded shell remap ecu

[Asp]

[mod hat]I've trimmed the posts about F4 into a separate thread, just to keep this as specific as possible. I'm also glad that we're able to have this debate - in the credit crunch times, it's a serious issue that needs to be addressed. NW FFord is still managed enough cars to warrant 2 separate grids - but even those grids aren't as bursting at the seems as they were just a few years ago.
I appreciate concerns that things have a habit, in forums in general, as turning into a slagging match. However, because I feel it's an important debate, if anyone feels that someone is trying to derail the thread - hit reported posts, and if I agree warnings will be issued. If everyone stays civil, there's nothing to fear from having it all in the open as Shoestring says.[/mod hat]

One comment on having both races on a single day. It's great if it's you that's got everything done and dusted on a Saturday, especially if you've wanted/needed Friday testing.
The problem is, if a weekend meeting is (Effectively) run a 2, 2-day meetings - what about those who test on Friday and then don't race until Sunday.

My question is therefore this - What's better for drivers/team (straw poll)?
1. Having everything done on a Saturday half of the season, and the other half of the season have everything done on the Sunday (to your disadvantage if you've been Friday testing, probably minimal difference if you've not); or
2. Spread things out over the weekend all season long.

[Triple J Motorsport]

I am sure someone told me a year or so ago ACB10s where sold in S.A. for £200 less.

Another thing that clubs should make clear is where the championship sponsorship money goes.

[driftwood]

i personally feel with the current economic climate and retsriants on peoples work schedules familt time etc that double header 1 day meetings make sense
lets take OP ff1600 as a n example
you test fridat have 1 hotel bill race saturday sunday you can please the family
only downside is if u ding car testing you may not get it fixed to race but thats life
if u have DH meeting and ding car in qualifying maybe not fix for races again thats life maybe ding car race 1 maybe cant fix for R2 again thats life
but i feel in general 1 day 2 races is the way forward saving lots of time for many folk


Triple J
in general sponsorship money goes towards the running of the club and sadly not enough into a prize fund or trophies or reducing enytry fees
my view is the land owner is the biggest single culprit for motorsport/ entry fees costing so much
its time the clubs stopped booking track at their extortianate rates cut down the number of events let them hurt a bit and club will get fuller grids that make it pay to run a meeting

[Flavio Galtieri]

So cutting costs really comes down to Tyres and Testing doesn't it?

My vote goes to double headers on one day, doesn't matter which day and an annual allocation of tyres per competitor as per Driftwood's point.

Also at Anglesey we had 30 mins free practice. I know there was slack on the timetable but it was a great idea, although we couldn't take part in it because we'd used our spare tyres up testing the previous day....had we been to the circuit before we probably wouldn't have spent money testing.

If there was just 10 mins free practice (enough to bed in pads, check damper settings etc) or 30 mins qualifying to allow for a productive pit stop then that might save a significant number of competitors the need to test the previous day.

Of course if you needed to test, or simply wanted to test, you still could but you'd have to balance that need against the annual tyre allocation which might be a good thing for the series as a whole.

[JohnMiller]

I might be wrong but I can't think of too many series where there are tyre limits for private testing. What would be the allowance if you were doing two series and who exactly would police it?

In my experience of FF1600 the people doing all of the winning are most definitely NOT the ones spending the most money.

I don't like the price of the ACB 10s any more than the next man but Avon have provided good service through thick and thin.

[Shoestring]

Triple J

If you are right and ACB10's can be bought in SA for £200 less it begs the question why?...plus it opens up an opportunity for a bit of entrepreneural enterprise shipping a load over maybe.
If BMTR are making £200+ per tyre, and I say if, then the current Avon cartel of not being able to buy them anywhere on the open market needs busting.

[Shoestring]

I have just found an invoice from 2006 for a set of ACB10's and the price was £360.
3years later I understand it is £450!....How can this be justified?

I understand that it is a 3yr rolling tender for tyre supply?
Does anyone know when the last tender date was then, and how many companies it went out to?
Who then can supply this information?....The BRSCC must know?

[Flavio Galtieri]

If we're discussing cutting the costs necessary to compete I can't think of any more important areas than tyres and testing that's all. Cutting costs might not only keep more people in the series but might also attract more to it.

Surely scrutineers could check the tyres, as happens elsewhere, and I can't see any problem with an allocation per series in this computerised era. So long as you can't mix and match it would be fair surely?

As for private testing then if it's to learn a circuit then used tyres should be fine at Club FF level. Perhaps there should be a couple of extra new sets a year per competitor or team just for testing, just a different mark used that's all. It can't be impossible to sort out of the will is there.

As for people doing all the spending not necessarily the ones doing all the winning well, you could be talking F1 there!

[kartingdad]

I wouldn't lay the blame at BMTR making £200 per set of tyres. Yes the tyres are expensive, but also remember that BMTRS provide, as JM points out a really good service. Remember if you buy them at the track, they fit them free. I know who I'd rather fit my tyres - and its not the gopher Thik Fit Fitter...

On day double headers are much better cost effectively, and if it could be rotated so the races are on a saturday one meeting and a sunday the next, well fair do's. At least SOMEONE has made an effort.

The next best way to reduce costs is for the organising clubs to promote the racing and get a share of the gate money. This could then be divided up on a pro rata basis amongst the different champs entry fees. Bigger grid races would get a bigger proportion of the entry fee discount.

Additionally, the different champs could promote their own series as well in order to attract 'proper' sponsorship to reduce fees.

Have any of the organising clubs even got a marketing dept?

[Triple J Motorsport]

Originally Posted by Shoestring

Triple J

If you are right and ACB10's can be bought in SA for £200 less it begs the question why?...plus it opens up an opportunity for a bit of entrepreneural enterprise shipping a load over maybe.
If BMTR are making £200+ per tyre, and I say if, then the current Avon cartel of not being able to buy them anywhere on the open market needs busting.

I was told this but someone who should know couple of years ago. He looked into shipping them but they were marked up differently.

If you want to limit tyres use the same format FFZetec used and FFDuratec uses. SFFC used to be 2 new tyres every race meeting except your first which was four.

You are correct about the 3 year tyre tender used to be conducted by work VD team. Never hear about them anymore.

Again IMO all this information should be published.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by kartingdad

The next best way to reduce costs is for the organising clubs to promote the racing and get a share of the gate money. This could then be divided up on a pro rata basis amongst the different champs entry fees. Bigger grid races would get a bigger proportion of the entry fee discount.

I agree, but if that were to happen the circuits would increase hire costs to offset the loss of gate revenue, so the net gain to the clubs would be proportionately less.