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Old 19 Aug 2013, 16:14 (Ref:3291775)   #1
Biscuits In A Red Bull
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Ricciardo is the man?!

After reading this article (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/109333), it will become obvious to you that Daniel Ricciardo is the man who will replace Mark Webber to take over the role of "pushover Aussie" for RBR.

However, this is clearly not the best RBR could do. If not for 'sponsorship problems' then what's wrong with Nico Hulkenberg?

And even within STR, Ricciardo has been outdone in the past 2 championships by Jean-Éric Vergne in the standings.

As good as he is, is he really deserving of a top seat?
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Old 19 Aug 2013, 19:44 (Ref:3291824)   #2
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I don't think he has been undone by JEV at all. You have to look at more than just the results.

Kimi wanted more than RBR were prepared to give him and they were not prepared to create tension in a team that is the opposite of the image they live with and have created amongst themselves.
Now there's only the Kimi to Ferrari rumours to settle unless of course Fernando really does walk away....
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Old 19 Aug 2013, 23:54 (Ref:3291886)   #3
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I have a gut feeling - and they are usually wrong - that Ricciardo may blossom at Red Bull. They just need to cut him some slack early on, but I think he may be up at the front by the end of next season (unless the car is a dog).
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Old 20 Aug 2013, 00:08 (Ref:3291888)   #4
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the very best of british to ricciardo if he has got the drive for next year. it's going to be one of, if not the best car on the grid and what he's been working towards his whole life.

it's a surprise in that they obviously had better drivers to go for but if one of those wants more in a season than red bull invested in ricciardo's entire pre-f1 career... it defeats the object of brewing your own f1 driver in the first place. depending on how vergne (or even da costa) goes at toro rosso ricciardo could be on a very short leash...
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Old 20 Aug 2013, 00:28 (Ref:3291894)   #5
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the very best of british to ricciardo if he has got the drive for next year. it's going to be one of, if not the best car on the grid and what he's been working towards his whole life.

it's a surprise in that they obviously had better drivers to go for but if one of those wants more in a season than red bull invested in ricciardo's entire pre-f1 career... it defeats the object of brewing your own f1 driver in the first place. depending on how vergne (or even da costa) goes at toro rosso ricciardo could be on a very short leash...
This is very true. Ricciardo has the chance to make a real impression now that Mark has moved on, (or was it that Mark moved on knowing that the use by date was coming up and decided he'd rather jump than be pushed....even if he could have had the chance of staying another year that may have been the limit.)

F1 can be really harsh and people who have not ingrained themselves to their employers sufficiently have often been moved on without ceremony if someone better was available.
Historically Johansson, Rosberg, Andretti, Brundle, were all moved from McLaren after a season for someone who was perceived as better or more desirable.
Watson procrastinated over his contract and suddenly Prost became available. Dear John... Then Kovalainen made way for Button....

And this is just McLaren.
RBR can look for another Vettel far more cheaply than buying an existing or current champion. But if you don't cut the mustard they aren't going to mess around and that is maybe why being a Red Bull baby is a bit of a poisoned chalice. You may only get one throw at it
If Red Bull drop you then everyone knows you aren't probably up to elite standard so it creates an signal to every other team in the F1 paddock that you aren't going to set the world on fire.
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Old 20 Aug 2013, 01:14 (Ref:3291903)   #6
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It seems to be the man for RBR.
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Old 20 Aug 2013, 02:09 (Ref:3291918)   #7
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Vettel was more of a gamble than Ricciardo, he'd only had one season under his belt, and it's was very mixed. Didn't he dnf on the first lap 3-4 races in a row in 2008?

Although he did win a race and RB wasn't the top team back then.

They kind of have to support their driver program, otherwise it just makes a mockery of it and the Torro Rosso team. Kimi was slightly different, because he's a top 4 driver in F1. Hulkenberg is not.

It'll be strange seeing Da Costa in the Torro Rosso next year, in some ways he hasn't really earned that seat yet. A few wins in WSR, mostly last year, and then a solid comeback in Gp3 in 2012 (only because Mitch just couldn't seem to string some luck together in the latter half) doesn't put him above guys like Valsecchi and Frijns who are champions.
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Old 20 Aug 2013, 07:49 (Ref:3291958)   #8
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Old 20 Aug 2013, 07:55 (Ref:3291959)   #9
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They kind of have to support their driver program, otherwise it just makes a mockery of it and the Torro Rosso team. Kimi was slightly different, because he's a top 4 driver in F1. Hulkenberg is not.
But have Red Bull invested money in the wrong guy? The answer? Well we'll have to wait for next season, but if he puts in mediocre performances then the Hulk would be better I'm sure, and if he's used as his likely role of "pushover Aussie" then you could've signed anyone!

And look down to RBR's driver programme. Both da Costa and Sainz Jr could do with a couple more seasons under their belts to mature and become a world class racer, which they have the potential to do, but Danil Kyvat? His awful test showings at Silverstone aren't the only problems. If he's meant to be the next driver for RBRs F1 team(s), then why is he not competitive in European F3? Whilst Marciello is Ferrari's man, why not invest in Felix Rosenqvist or Alex Lynn, who show more potential?

And then there is clearly some favouritism from Christian Horner between the 2 STR drivers. As far as I'm concerned, by looking at Ricciardo and not Vergne, then claiming the Frenchman is not ready for F1, after showing some amazing pace at Monaco and Montreal, only to suddenly drop away from Ricciardo, suggests to me that maybe Ricciardo's sudden and massive advantage isn't just the Aussie's determination, but also Red Bull trying to hype up their next driver, and as a result Vergne is now looking average again. Call me cynical, but this could be the case. It would certainly give Ricciardo a big psychological boost heading into next season.

And Hulkenberg, given the car, could easily be one of Formula 1's best ever drivers. He led the most laps in the 2012 Brazilian GP finale in a Force India in outrageously slippery conditions, giving wet weather demi-gods Jenson Button and Lewis Hamilton (something British then?) a run for his money. And he should've got a podium at Spa last year, but the team put him on a slower strategy than those around him, costing him.
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Old 20 Aug 2013, 09:04 (Ref:3291969)   #10
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Red Bull have nothing to lose by putting Ricciardo in the car on a one-year deal. If he fails, they will still have a 3 (or 4?) time WDC in the other car who (barring freak injury) will extract the best out of it.

Honestly, if they did not go for one of the Torro Rosso drivers, what is the point of having that as a second team? I think Ricciardo will do well. In fact, I think RBR have made this decision one year too late.
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Old 20 Aug 2013, 09:09 (Ref:3291971)   #11
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In fact, I think RBR have made this decision one year too late.
I don't. Mark Webber was there.
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Old 20 Aug 2013, 10:42 (Ref:3291988)   #12
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RBR can look for another Vettel far more cheaply than buying an existing or current champion. But if you don't cut the mustard they aren't going to mess around and that is maybe why being a Red Bull baby is a bit of a poisoned chalice. You may only get one throw at it
If Red Bull drop you then everyone knows you aren't probably up to elite standard so it creates an signal to every other team in the F1 paddock that you aren't going to set the world on fire.
the counterpoint to that is that you *do* at least get a chance to have a go though. they'll give you a couple of seasons if you deliver on the way up, which is more than guys like frijns have right now. aside from a huge wallet, red bull seem to be the only ones who really know what to look for in a potential f1 driver and even then their decisions have been a bit off. but what they can do is take a very good, if not absolutely the best talent and turn them into a very competant f1 driver. not all that easy to do.

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It'll be strange seeing Da Costa in the Torro Rosso next year, in some ways he hasn't really earned that seat yet. A few wins in WSR, mostly last year, and then a solid comeback in Gp3 in 2012 (only because Mitch just couldn't seem to string some luck together in the latter half) doesn't put him above guys like Valsecchi and Frijns who are champions.
i agree about da costa, but i think that's just because there was so much noise about him last year. ricciardo had a very quiet year (aside from a monaco win) in the run up and parallel to his hrt drive a couple of years ago, so they're not really looking for the same things we look for. he has been stitched up by some interesting team decisions this year to be fair, that engine issue at the red bull ring definitely has more to it than meets the eye.
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And look down to RBR's driver programme. Both da Costa and Sainz Jr could do with a couple more seasons under their belts to mature and become a world class racer, which they have the potential to do, but Danil Kyvat? His awful test showings at Silverstone aren't the only problems. If he's meant to be the next driver for RBRs F1 team(s), then why is he not competitive in European F3? Whilst Marciello is Ferrari's man, why not invest in Felix Rosenqvist or Alex Lynn, who show more potential?
da costa has been around single seater racing so long that if he isn't ready now, he isn't ever going to be ready. have a look at his career, and the teams he has had the opportunity to drive for. i think you're being a bit harsh on sainz jnr and kvyat though - there is no single way to treat all drivers that will extract the maximum from them. i personally believe that kvyat is damn quick, but he's missing so many strings to his bow that they should be picking a very very good engineer, and sticking him in f3 for a few years. if he's still not there then he never will be. there's more to it than simply results.

i just had a look at the 3.5 field to try and find some counter-suggestions to your f3 ones (who don't inspire me at all, sorry ), but mclaren, and lotus have got the couple of drivers who i'm most impressed by. i think muller has endless potential and would be a great fit with williams, stevens is fine for caterham, but i can't quite think of a home for melker. he's really quick though, even if you get the distinct impression that he's being flattered by a teammate whose heart just isn't in it any more.

i think you're barking up the wrong tree by suggesting there's bias within red bull, but that's just my opinion rather than being backed up by some sort of ~insider knowledge. ricciardo has just been doing exactly what he's been doing all year whilst vergne has good days and bad days around him. there's no doubt that on a good day, jev is better than ricciardo, imo. vergne was fine in qualifying in 3.5 and f3, give or take a tenth or two with similar small time and tyre windows for performance, so perhaps it's related to tyre characteristics?

also, imo you're flattering hulkenberg - throughout his career to f1 he has had the best car, in the best team in any series. he's very good and well-practiced at exploiting that, and he's certainly producing some good performances in f1, but a hero? hmmm.

woah, epic post, sorry!
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Old 20 Aug 2013, 13:20 (Ref:3292023)   #13
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Good decision putting Ricciardo there, hopefully he'll do better (?) than Webber, whatever that means.
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Old 20 Aug 2013, 14:15 (Ref:3292032)   #14
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Good decision putting Ricciardo there, hopefully he'll do better (?) than Webber, whatever that means.
I hope he does better but I just can't see it , I see a future of KERS failures for Ricciardo
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Old 20 Aug 2013, 20:20 (Ref:3292139)   #15
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Well, I suppose that I can see the thinking behind it. Having a second team and developing drivers there for Red Bull. Plus, having him serve as an understudy to Vettel might be good. Having Kimi and Vettel lock horns(no pun intended) in the same team might turn things nasty.
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Old 20 Aug 2013, 20:43 (Ref:3292141)   #16
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I hope he does better but I just can't see it , I see a future of KERS failures for Ricciardo
Why a series of KERS failures....?
Or should that be a series of 'KERS failures' ......?
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Old 20 Aug 2013, 21:42 (Ref:3292170)   #17
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Why a series of KERS failures....?
Or should that be a series of 'KERS failures' ......?
Very good , I see what you did now I thought you were going all Grammer Police on me ! ( "Grammer Police")
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Old 20 Aug 2013, 23:06 (Ref:3292192)   #18
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Perhaps RB are grooming for Vettels replacement, in case he wants to go to Ferrari in 2017 (or earlier if Alonso throws the towel in, because that is a long way away), they'll then have Ricciardo all ready to take over.

Will Kimi still be in F1 in 2017, and even if he is, he most likely won't be at his peak anymore and won't be RB's best option in a few years time.

But Ricciardo and Verge could be peaking.

All pretty unlikely though as that's 4 years away, anything could happen in that time. But they could be thinking more about the future, and post-Vettel.
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Old 20 Aug 2013, 23:58 (Ref:3292203)   #19
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Esteban Guerrieri is very pleased with the idea to see Ricciardo in Red Bull.
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Old 21 Aug 2013, 04:19 (Ref:3292248)   #20
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After reading this article ([URL]
However, this is clearly not the best RBR could do. If not for 'sponsorship problems' then what's wrong with Nico Hulkenberg?
Note sure I would be rushing Hulk into a car considering hsi efforts whilst leading in Brazil last year. Kind of threw it away...but was doing well to get there

I am coming to the thinking that Hulk is in the Fisi/Frentzen mould. Excellent in mid field cars...will be disappointing in front running car

Dan had stupid speed back in his first few tests with RBR...years later RBR have opened the door for him to show what he has got to offer. I am stoked that in 12 months we will be able to answer the question of just how good he is.

I think he will prove many wrong and will surprise many with his consistency and results in his rookie year in a top shelf team!

If not...I will be happy enough to at least see more of a guy that smiles and looks to enjoy himself vs most others who look like they want to kill themselves they are so miserable eveyr GP weekend. Just have to get Romain back to his smiling ways and the paddock will be a better place

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Old 21 Aug 2013, 04:42 (Ref:3292255)   #21
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And then there is clearly some favouritism from Christian Horner between the 2 STR drivers. As far as I'm concerned, by looking at Ricciardo and not Vergne, then claiming the Frenchman is not ready for F1, after showing some amazing pace at Monaco and Montreal, only to suddenly drop away from Ricciardo, suggests to me that maybe Ricciardo's sudden and massive advantage isn't just the Aussie's determination, but also Red Bull trying to hype up their next driver, and as a result Vergne is now looking average again. Call me cynical, but this could be the case. It would certainly give Ricciardo a big psychological boost heading into next season.
Looks like I am Dan's apologist for the next 12 months

James Allen predicted before the British GP that Dan will go back to showing superior pace to Jev at Silverstone and following races. His reasoning was that Jev is very good at the slow stuff where Dan is VERY good in the high speed stuff with his accuracy and feel for the car. Sort of the opposite of Jev.

Thats James Allens reasoning why Jev looked good in Canada and Monaco...but he seemed to have called it that the traditional F1 circuits favour Dans natural feel and style of driving.

So I dont think its anything consipiracy related.
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Old 21 Aug 2013, 06:35 (Ref:3292284)   #22
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Looks like I am Dan's apologist for the next 12 months

James Allen predicted before the British GP that Dan will go back to showing superior pace to Jev at Silverstone and following races. His reasoning was that Jev is very good at the slow stuff where Dan is VERY good in the high speed stuff with his accuracy and feel for the car. Sort of the opposite of Jev.

Thats James Allens reasoning why Jev looked good in Canada and Monaco...but he seemed to have called it that the traditional F1 circuits favour Dans natural feel and style of driving.

So I dont think its anything consipiracy related.
I don't think it's anything like that either, I just think that it may be what STR are doing slightly, just to boost Ricciardo's confidence and make him believe in himself more heading into next season. That way he'll drive better and get the results we know he can get.
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Old 21 Aug 2013, 09:58 (Ref:3292334)   #23
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Dan had stupid speed back in his first few tests with RBR...years later RBR have opened the door for him to show what he has got to offer. I am stoked that in 12 months we will be able to answer the question of just how good he is.

I think he will prove many wrong and will surprise many with his consistency and results in his rookie year in a top shelf team!

If not...I will be happy enough to at least see more of a guy that smiles and looks to enjoy himself vs most others who look like they want to kill themselves they are so miserable eveyr GP weekend. Just have to get Romain back to his smiling ways and the paddock will be a better place
Ricciardo will be in a sink or swim situation and measured by one hell of a ruler in Vettel!
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Old 21 Aug 2013, 13:28 (Ref:3292409)   #24
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Ricciardo will be in a sink or swim situation and measured by one hell of a ruler in Vettel!
Naturally... uhn... makes me remember Sergio Perez (in comparision to Hamilton).
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Old 23 Aug 2013, 08:05 (Ref:3292953)   #25
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Naturally... uhn... makes me remember Sergio Perez (in comparision to Hamilton).
That one doesn't work because the McLaren is awful this season in comparison.
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