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Old 22 Feb 2017, 01:35 (Ref:3713860)   #2376
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Originally Posted by TF110 View Post
The guy said it's not hard to get a dpi car up to p1 specs.
It's easy to say that. The proof is in the pudding.

Let's see someone transform a DPi into a P1. Then, I will be impressed. I don't think it is possible.
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Old 22 Feb 2017, 01:58 (Ref:3713862)   #2377
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This is why people complain about Dagys. The amount of editorial slant inserted in that article is disgusting.

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You were at the 24 Hours of Daytona. What did you think of the DPi concept?

"We do not pursue the same goals even if the desire to have a common prototype was there. The offer is different from that of Europe. I'm glad that the category could have started in the United States. Today, the Cadillac is a Dallara P217 equipped with a General Motors engine. I do not think there is a mountain to climb to come in LM P1 non-hybrid. Seeing a Dallara chassis equipped with a Cadillac engine is not insurmountable if the car is aligned by a private team. "
That's it, that's the entire extent to which he spoke on any topic related to DPi. Dagys reprints parts of the interview out of order to make it sound like he's talking up LMP1 to downplay some alleged rumours he fabricated so he can stir up more stupid "my series is better than yours" flag waving BS.
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Old 22 Feb 2017, 02:47 (Ref:3713872)   #2378
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Well, unless Indy Car implodes, Marshall Pruett won't come back to doing sportscar coverage fulltime for Racer and others.
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Old 22 Feb 2017, 06:54 (Ref:3713903)   #2379
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This is why people complain about Dagys. The amount of editorial slant inserted in that article is disgusting.



That's it, that's the entire extent to which he spoke on any topic related to DPi. Dagys reprints parts of the interview out of order to make it sound like he's talking up LMP1 to downplay some alleged rumours he fabricated so he can stir up more stupid "my series is better than yours" flag waving BS.
That's how it is nowadays. Anything to get clicks. Judging from the comments, people are eating it up. Calling the aco snobbish and other things, but I got a good laugh out of it.
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Old 22 Feb 2017, 07:56 (Ref:3713909)   #2380
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That's how it is nowadays. Anything to get clicks. Judging from the comments, people are eating it up.
This, my friends, is the current state of journalism ... because we are "eating it up."

We get tweets about which airport lounge someone is sitting in and an itinerary, because we follow on Twitter so we can get that one in a thousand meaningful nugget of news ... ten minutes sooner. Of course if it is Real news, we will hear about it at length, so what good is the tweet? None, but it generates activity. And We get to know some rumor .. . ten minutes sooner than everyone who couldn't care anyway.

Same with clickbait articles ... and Mr. Daguys doesn't really do clickbait. His stuff has some substance, thought it might be stretched a little ... but in today's media environment, if you don't have a ton of twits following you and you aren't tweeting seven or nine or whatever times a day ... and if you aren't getting X number of comments per article ...

Publishers couldn't care less if 1000 people write "You suck, your mom sucks, your dog sucks, your writing sucks!" If they can tell their advertisers, "Look at how active his fan base is!" that's all they want. It's better, in fact if he says outrageous things, because that brings the nuts out from under the furniture or wherever they hide, and once a good shouting match gets started ... We have all seen it. And probably, most of us have fallen for it once or twice.

If we want sportscar racing to get coverage, we have two options. Pay, as in get subscriptions to magazines and websites ... or pay by putting up with ads, provocation pieces, clickbait, stupid tweets, and all that. And honestly, unless we were all paying a thousand dollars a year for website access, the publishers would still push for the lowest-common-denominator stuff.

If people want to get upset about it, that's fine. If people want to walk away from the sport because of it, that's fine.

The best thing to do it simply not participate in the media frenzy. Don't visit the sportscar websites more than a couple of time a week, don't follow anyone on Twitter, don't get sucked into commenting on the websites. it would still be a lot more news than the mimeographed weekly newsletter and monthly magazines covering races from three months ago which we used to get ... and we were okay with it then.
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Old 22 Feb 2017, 12:15 (Ref:3713979)   #2381
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This, my friends, is the current state of journalism ... because we are "eating it up."

We get tweets about which airport lounge someone is sitting in and an itinerary, because we follow on Twitter so we can get that one in a thousand meaningful nugget of news ... ten minutes sooner. Of course if it is Real news, we will hear about it at length, so what good is the tweet? None, but it generates activity. And We get to know some rumor .. . ten minutes sooner than everyone who couldn't care anyway.

Same with clickbait articles ... and Mr. Daguys doesn't really do clickbait. His stuff has some substance, thought it might be stretched a little ... but in today's media environment, if you don't have a ton of twits following you and you aren't tweeting seven or nine or whatever times a day ... and if you aren't getting X number of comments per article ...

Publishers couldn't care less if 1000 people write "You suck, your mom sucks, your dog sucks, your writing sucks!" If they can tell their advertisers, "Look at how active his fan base is!" that's all they want. It's better, in fact if he says outrageous things, because that brings the nuts out from under the furniture or wherever they hide, and once a good shouting match gets started ... We have all seen it. And probably, most of us have fallen for it once or twice.

If we want sportscar racing to get coverage, we have two options. Pay, as in get subscriptions to magazines and websites ... or pay by putting up with ads, provocation pieces, clickbait, stupid tweets, and all that. And honestly, unless we were all paying a thousand dollars a year for website access, the publishers would still push for the lowest-common-denominator stuff.

If people want to get upset about it, that's fine. If people want to walk away from the sport because of it, that's fine.

The best thing to do it simply not participate in the media frenzy. Don't visit the sportscar websites more than a couple of time a week, don't follow anyone on Twitter, don't get sucked into commenting on the websites. it would still be a lot more news than the mimeographed weekly newsletter and monthly magazines covering races from three months ago which we used to get ... and we were okay with it then.


you're joking, right?
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Old 22 Feb 2017, 12:23 (Ref:3713982)   #2382
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The DPi topic is a good example of clickbait.

ACO says DPi is good an easy to adapt to Le Mans, but it isn't what they want to go with.

S365 headline is “No Mountain to Climb” for DPis in LMP1 Privateer, which is implying that they have plans for DPi in ACO competition, which isn't what the article says.

Whilst S365 doesn't do clickbait in the "20 reasons IMSA is amazing" sense, it does happily twist words into a more attractive headline. You can say that's the norm, and you'd be right - but that doesn't mean it's ok.
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Old 22 Feb 2017, 14:03 (Ref:3714007)   #2383
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And even some of Pruett's Racer articles have click-baitish titles just to get you to read the damn article, especially if you're not a hardcore fan of Indy Car or Road Racing. Only difference is that Marshall keeps the title more relevant to the actual content.

Headlines of a story are called headlines for a reason.
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Old 22 Feb 2017, 15:21 (Ref:3714030)   #2384
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And what's wrong with reading the rest of the article?

There might be no news but having the guy (Beaumesnil) at the Rolex and making a statement on DPi is worth reporting imo.

I find it funny the ACO keeps trying to exclude all manufacturers involvement in P1-L/P2 while they're clearly after those manufacturers to participate in their series - just for them to go into GTE or P1-H. DPi could be a great compromise to accommodate more manufacturers in prototype that might have a higher interest in marketing their brand than developing their racing-to-road-use technology. Just saying.
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Old 22 Feb 2017, 15:41 (Ref:3714036)   #2385
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"Clickbait" would be "V. Beaumasnil was asked about DPi and you'll never guess what he said ... "

As for headlines ... yeah, as I said, if we the consumers don't consume them .... but as was said people seem to be "eating it up." On the other hand, the Kardashians seem to still be really popular.

Sometimes it really isn't us, and it really is the world.
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Old 22 Feb 2017, 16:14 (Ref:3714047)   #2386
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And what's wrong with reading the rest of the article?

There might be no news but having the guy (Beaumesnil) at the Rolex and making a statement on DPi is worth reporting imo.

I find it funny the ACO keeps trying to exclude all manufacturers involvement in P1-L/P2 while they're clearly after those manufacturers to participate in their series - just for them to go into GTE or P1-H. DPi could be a great compromise to accommodate more manufacturers in prototype that might have a higher interest in marketing their brand than developing their racing-to-road-use technology. Just saying.
The ACO likes to ignore the manufacturer issues at times too. Alpine in LMP2 is a bit of a joke, even if it is just a rebadged ORECA.

I actually agree with what the ACO is trying to do though, I just don't think their methods of achieving it are very good. Manufacturers should be in P1-H, not LMP2 or privateer P1-L class. Allowing manufactures into private classes doesn't solve the problem itself, only a symptom. The ACO has long been accused on not looking after the small teams, and in this case they actually are.

I also think the same for IMSA - GTD (GT3) is a non-works class. I don't really think Lexus and Acura should be allowed works efforts in the class. That's what GTE is for. Let the little guys fight it out together, rather than having works backed efforts and factory drivers in there.
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Old 22 Feb 2017, 16:27 (Ref:3714050)   #2387
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The ACO likes to ignore the manufacturer issues at times too. Alpine in LMP2 is a bit of a joke, even if it is just a rebadged ORECA.

I actually agree with what the ACO is trying to do though, I just don't think their methods of achieving it are very good. Manufacturers should be in P1-H, not LMP2 or privateer P1-L class. Allowing manufactures into private classes doesn't solve the problem itself, only a symptom. The ACO has long been accused on not looking after the small teams, and in this case they actually are.

I also think the same for IMSA - GTD (GT3) is a non-works class. I don't really think Lexus and Acura should be allowed works efforts in the class. That's what GTE is for. Let the little guys fight it out together, rather than having works backed efforts and factory drivers in there.
That should be ending after this year, IMSA is allowing them as factory entries for the first year as a developmental deal, then no more after that year.

We'll see what happens.
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Old 22 Feb 2017, 19:41 (Ref:3714084)   #2388
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Two truths of journalism everyone really needs to just accept already:

1) All journalists will at least periodically make articles with clickbait headlines. No exceptions.

Even printed newspapers have used that tactic since the earliest days of the medium.

2) All journalists will at least occasionally put blatant lies in their articles. No exceptions.

The reasons may be good -such as to protect a source at risk of being exposed- or morally questionable -like pushing a non-existent narrative- but they will happen.

Last edited by FormulaFox; 22 Feb 2017 at 20:04.
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Old 23 Feb 2017, 02:26 (Ref:3714150)   #2389
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Two truths of journalism everyone really needs to just accept already:

1) All journalists will at least periodically make articles with clickbait headlines. No exceptions.
All? That's a fairly ambitious assumption.

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2) All journalists will at least occasionally put blatant lies in their articles. No exceptions.
No they don't. This is a pretty hot take on something you both can't prove, and is, wait for it, a blatant lie. The irony.... IT BUUUUUURRRRRRRNNNNNNSSSSS!!!!!
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Old 23 Feb 2017, 03:09 (Ref:3714156)   #2390
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Two truths of journalism everyone really needs to just accept already:

1) All journalists will at least periodically make articles with clickbait headlines. No exceptions.

Even printed newspapers have used that tactic since the earliest days of the medium.
here, I can say that you are wrong. In most cases the people who write the articles don't write the heds. ("Insider information.")

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2) All journalists will at least occasionally put blatant lies in their articles. No exceptions.
That is untrue and frankly just insulting. Maybe you read too much Alt-Right news (you know, the ones who tell you not to trust the media, with the subtext that you should overlook that they are also the media.)

Fact is, most journalists I know (again, I cannot reveal my sources ... no actual NDA, but .... ) would Never deliberately write a lie. never. If they need to hide the identity of a source they simply leave out potentially indentifying information.

As for "pushing a non-existent narrative" first off, if they create it, it exists. What we now consider to be broadly accepted understandings were at one time "non-existent narratives," points of view they just dreamed up, which made sense and became excepted ... ask Charles Darwin and Albert Einstein about their "non-existent narratives." They were each crapped on for years, for lying ....

Second, most journalists I know simply do not Want to lie. Telling the truth is the whole point. There are definitely some propagandists calling themselves journalists ... pushing "false narratives," that is, understandings of a situation which do not match up with facts .... but those are not journalists. People who write lies for a living are propagandists or advertisers.

Besides ... you make all these bold and totally unsupported claims ... like any other dishonest propagandist, and totally undermine your own credibility ... point out all the lies in that specific Daguys article please. Just list them and quote them.

Do it.
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Old 23 Feb 2017, 03:21 (Ref:3714159)   #2391
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Maybe you read too much Alt-Right news (you know, the ones who tell you not to trust the media, with the subtext that you should overlook that they are also the media.)
I don't read any type of news excessively. There have been too many cases of journalists on all sides for me to blindly trust anything. I look at reporting from all angles to figure out what's really going on.

You can choose not to believe these things if you want, but you've only yourself to blame when you get led down the path of a lie. I've learned how the hard way how willing journalists -both individually and collectively- are willing to lie when it suits them.
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Old 23 Feb 2017, 14:02 (Ref:3714268)   #2392
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There are probably lots of good places on the Internet to debate journalist and journalism, this isn't that place though.

Bring it back to DPI.
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Old 24 Feb 2017, 02:03 (Ref:3714381)   #2393
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This maybe the silliest question but can a private team create they own DPi car, or is it only for a manufacturers?
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Old 24 Feb 2017, 02:25 (Ref:3714382)   #2394
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This maybe the silliest question but can a private team create they own DPi car, or is it only for a manufacturers?
They can fund it, but the manufacturer will have to give their permission at the very least.
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Old 24 Feb 2017, 22:37 (Ref:3714592)   #2395
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Some thoughts after Daytona and Sebring tests.

- The P2 cars (not the Riley) and Nissan cars seems to be matched against each other (if the Nissan engine resist). That means that the Oreca and Ligier are at the same level.

- The Mazdas and the Riley seems to be slower than the other cars. At first sight we could say that the Mazda engine is powerfull, but it could be the custom aero that gives the Mazda a 5mph final speed superiority over the Riley P2. The Mazda reachs the same final speed that the other cars, but the Riley is always 5 mph slower. Then we have the lap times, and here both cars seems to be 0.5 or 1 seconds slower than the other cars (don't count the Cadillacs). So, the Riley base chassis looks strong, but slow.

- Finally we have the Cadillacs. And here is where I would love to have the data of the Dunlop tests at Sebring, because we could compare the Dallara chassis of the Cadillac against the Oreca and Ligier all with the same engine. That way we could put the Cadillac engine aside of the equation. I doubt that the engine is the only reason of the speed of the Cadillac cars. Sebring is not Daytona, and even with a air restriction, the Cadillac cars are 1 second faster all the time. Two different tracks, two different kind of tyres and two different BoP.
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Old 25 Feb 2017, 04:31 (Ref:3714610)   #2396
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- Finally we have the Cadillacs. I doubt that the engine is the only reason of the speed of the Cadillac cars. Sebring is not Daytona, and even with a air restriction, the Cadillac cars are 1 second faster all the time. Two different tracks, two different kind of tyres and two different BoP.
This is where BoP becomes so crucial and so difficult. Is the Cadillac simply a better car, better developed, run by better teams? In the way that the Oraca dn Ligier are better than the Riley? Or isd it that the AXR guys a re that good, and WTR also .... or is it that these teams have the budgets to do more testing and run more sims?

Or is it that the cars are simply not BoP'ed enough?

I have no trouble with Cadillacs sweeping every podium in every race, so long as it is done by merit, not executive fiat.
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Old 25 Feb 2017, 09:09 (Ref:3714643)   #2397
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it could be the custom aero that gives the Mazda a 5mph final speed superiority over the Riley P2
Rather it's the restricted aero. The Mazdas are being forced to run a mediumish downforce setup to match their straight line performance with the other cars while the standard LMP2 can choose to run much more downforce. In the Daytona BoP tables the Riley has a 65mm body gurney and H6 rear wing configuration listed while the Mazda can only run 20mm and H4 at Sebring, although they get more flap angle and a 15mm flap gurney.

The Cadillacs were testing single diveplanes like Daytona, for example. Cadillac and Nissan still have "low downforce" front parts options listed on the BoP sheet too.
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Old 25 Feb 2017, 14:47 (Ref:3714679)   #2398
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It would probably help if somebody would run a standard Dallara as well.
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Old 25 Feb 2017, 20:44 (Ref:3714723)   #2399
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This is why bop in a top prototype class is so tricky. The fact that the Dallara was run so much more than the Mazda and ESM shows. Even if they change the bop to reduce power on the Caddy's, the torque is still there and so is the setup knowledge. To me it looks like ESM will catch them before Mazda does. If they ever catch them. Maybe Rebellion does better and is on their pace because the Oreca at the test isn't too far off.
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Old 26 Feb 2017, 00:11 (Ref:3714746)   #2400
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Originally Posted by TF110 View Post
This is why bop in a top prototype class is so tricky. The fact that the Dallara was run so much more than the Mazda and ESM shows. Even if they change the bop to reduce power on the Caddy's, the torque is still there and so is the setup knowledge. To me it looks like ESM will catch them before Mazda does. If they ever catch them. Maybe Rebellion does better and is on their pace because the Oreca at the test isn't too far off.
I agree with some part of your comments. But still we have the P2 cars behind the Cadillacs and some of those cars have been testing since last year. The new Continental tyre should been new for everybody so no advantage in that.

Is the Cadillac engine too big to apply a correct BoP? So why then IMSA allowed a 6.2 litres engine? The Gibson P2 engine is 4.2 litres, so can't be so far in overal performance, but it is.
Damian Baldi is offline  
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