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Old 24 Jul 2011, 21:45 (Ref:2930628)   #101
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Do they still have the shenanigans about getting a diddy air restrictor increase if you have AC on the car, so that someone (Pescarolo IIRC) ran an open topped car with air conditioning, thinking it would use less power than they gained from the restrictor increase?
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Old 24 Jul 2011, 23:15 (Ref:2930657)   #102
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Do they still have the shenanigans about getting a diddy air restrictor increase if you have AC on the car, so that someone (Pescarolo IIRC) ran an open topped car with air conditioning, thinking it would use less power than they gained from the restrictor increase?
Nope. That's why Audi made sure the R18 could do without it.

(Besides, the restrictor break was given for having AC. If they had it, but the temperatures were low enough that they could turn it off, that was fine too )
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Old 26 Jul 2011, 13:34 (Ref:2931338)   #103
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Well it's good if they're closed, they'll be more aerodynamic and possibly even safer!

Also like the Red Bull X1 they will sort of look like that, more so if they cover the wheels :P
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Old 27 Jul 2011, 11:39 (Ref:2931727)   #104
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I don't think we'd get completely covered wheels. Perhaps more bodywork around the wheels (like that FCJ design) would be a logical idea to stop wheel-over-wheel crashes.
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Old 27 Jul 2011, 12:56 (Ref:2931750)   #105
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The thing is with closed cockpits we really don't know what the designers would actually come up with.

Adrian Newey clearly was give a certain brief to produce the X1 as a concept, and video game car. How much time was spent on genuine aero as opposed to a sleak overall look, only RedBull and the games company will know.

The trouble is though, you'd need a big budget and a team separate from the current F1 design/car improvements team to take a blank sheet of paper as it were and produce a genuine Closed Cockpit F1 car.

Only on seeing these designs would we be able to make a true judgement as to
A/ The practicalities
B/ The aesthetics
C/ Would the covered cockpit result in a faster Car and have to be reigned back in again.
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Old 27 Jul 2011, 13:42 (Ref:2931770)   #106
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While there has been a lot of improvements in cockpit safety over the past decade, the philosophy of F1 seems to be very much focused on circuit improvements and stewarding (the avoidable collisions penalties etc.).

I think that this approach will change in the near future. F1 will realise that its easier and more cost effective to make the cockputs bullet proof (excuse the pun) to the extent that they will withstand a collision with just about anything than to have to invest billions in building new circuits and adapting older ones. This would mean that F1 cars could race anywhere with minimal risk to the driver. In the future circuit design will be more focused on spectator safety rather than driver safety and we'll see a trend whereby spectators are brought closer to the action, but behind more hi-tech barriers.
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Old 28 Jul 2011, 09:09 (Ref:2932059)   #107
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I think this man is on to something
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Old 29 Jul 2011, 00:38 (Ref:2932311)   #108
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While there has been a lot of improvements in cockpit safety over the past decade, the philosophy of F1 seems to be very much focused on circuit improvements and stewarding (the avoidable collisions penalties etc.).

I think that this approach will change in the near future. F1 will realise that its easier and more cost effective to make the cockputs bullet proof (excuse the pun) to the extent that they will withstand a collision with just about anything than to have to invest billions in building new circuits and adapting older ones. This would mean that F1 cars could race anywhere with minimal risk to the driver. In the future circuit design will be more focused on spectator safety rather than driver safety and we'll see a trend whereby spectators are brought closer to the action, but behind more hi-tech barriers.

The problem here is that humans are quite delicate, the cockpit area may be intact, all good, but the driver could well be dead. Hakkinen's Australian accident, Wendlinger and Perez at Monaco all could all have turned out much worse, the driver being severely injured despite the car structure remaining intact as far as protecting the driver went.
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Old 29 Jul 2011, 02:14 (Ref:2932325)   #109
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Putting wings and other bits aside, I just think F1 cars, like Indy Cars, ought to be open wheel, open cockpit. And something inside my head will nag at me that it's "wrong" if they aren't.

The potential for wheel/wheel contact FORCES drivers to be more respectful on the track than is otherwise the case, especially with tin-tops. And you can't convince me that that greater respect is a bad thing!

Also, fendered cars are immune in the least from those sorts of incidents?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uypk5xkzwZ4

Having an open cockpit also puts the onus on the designers to minimize chances of parts just coming off under "normal" operating conditions. That isn't a bad thing either.

Apart from everything else though, this is an absurd amount of time, effort, and money being spent on an incredibly rare occurrence. Nobody got such a head injury at Spa in 1998, or in the "big one" at the Indy Car race at Atlanta in 2001. In the end, considering the risks that many other professionals must take, doing jobs that are FAR MORE ESSENTIAL to the functioning of our modern civilization, you can't honestly tell me that these drivers DESERVE the level of protection they currently have, much less more protection than that.

Frankly, beyond a point, a point which we reached some time ago, I'm virtually convinced that we make the racing MORE dangerous with so many of these niggly new improvements, because while the cars and the tracks get just a little bit better here or there, the drivers themselves become LESS safe. The fewer things you have to worry about, the less vigilant you are, and the more mistakes you make and stupid stuff you do. If consequences become nil (what's a steward's penalty going to do that can touch the real possibility of getting injured?), drivers think MUCH LESS about potential consequences, and carelessness increases. So, one track improvement versus 24 drivers who are each somewhat less actively concerned about their conduct, well, you can't tell me that that equation is balanced, and expect me to believe it.

There was an experiment with Munich cabbies. One group kept their old BMW cabs, while the other group got a slightly updated model that had ABS. Guess which group had the higher rates of speeding, reckless driving, traffic violations, and accidents? It was, in fact, the group WITH that added "safety" feature.
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Old 29 Jul 2011, 04:55 (Ref:2932333)   #110
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Let's just go back to rolling rocks down a hill, so much less effort ....
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Old 29 Jul 2011, 18:39 (Ref:2932897)   #111
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Well, you know, there was that one guy in Greek mythology who was doomed to forever have to push a boulder up a hill.
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Old 29 Jul 2011, 19:14 (Ref:2932930)   #112
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Well, you know, there was that one guy in Greek mythology who was doomed to forever have to push a boulder up a hill.
Sisyphus.
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Old 2 Aug 2011, 15:22 (Ref:2935017)   #113
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Sisyphus.
I like Chicago.
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Old 3 Aug 2011, 00:55 (Ref:2935198)   #114
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Has anybody noticed that very little was said about the Massa incident, or am I missing something?
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Old 3 Aug 2011, 07:19 (Ref:2935266)   #115
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Has anybody noticed that very little was said about the Massa incident, or am I missing something?
You are right Jeremy. A full canopy may well have prevented Massa from being injured or at least minimised it. That would have been a blessing.

I am neither pro nor against the use of full canopies, more I would leave the decision up to the drivers. If they collectively decided they would like to have them, then I wouldn't see anything wrong in that. After all it is they that take the risks involved.

P
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Old 10 Aug 2011, 04:03 (Ref:2937935)   #116
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Safety concept for gokart racing.

http://www.hyperracer.com/hyper-race...r/safenew.html


The concept of putting a closed cockpit on an F1 car could be achieved on a gokart with a similar treatment to this.
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Old 10 Aug 2011, 04:40 (Ref:2937940)   #117
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Safety concept for gokart racing.

http://www.hyperracer.com/hyper-race...r/safenew.html


The concept of putting a closed cockpit on an F1 car could be achieved on a gokart with a similar treatment to this.
But how are you going to incorporate a frame based canopy, into a current monocoque F1 chassis?
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Old 10 Aug 2011, 04:52 (Ref:2937944)   #118
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You wouldn't BJ you would simply reshape and work out the stresses in the carbon monocoque and canopy to fit over the driver as per the Red Bull X1 rendition.

The Hyper pro illustrates that the treatment would be possible in the lower forms of motorsport even with a tube chassis.
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Old 10 Aug 2011, 04:58 (Ref:2937946)   #119
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You wouldn't BJ you would simply reshape and work out the stresses in the carbon monocoque and canopy to fit over the driver as per the Red Bull X1 rendition.

The Hyper pro illustrates that the treatment would be possible in the lower forms of motorsport even with a tube chassis.
Ok but the reditions of the Red Bull X1 make it look like an LMP1 car, so it's all one structure.

What if the car flips, how does the driver get out? The frame canopy has to be got rid of somehow.
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Old 10 Aug 2011, 05:05 (Ref:2937947)   #120
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Ok but the reditions of the Red Bull X1 make it look like an LMP1 car, so it's all one structure.

What if the car flips, how does the driver get out? The frame canopy has to be got rid of somehow.
My original idea was to use an air powered ram jack mounted under/ near the roll hoop and powered by its own supply which could be activated from inside or outside the car and would simply force the canopy off and push the car off any obstacle it was against, allowing the driver to escape. The whole unit could easily be self contained.
Would imo be safer than you would be curretly if you were upturned in a gravel trap.
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Old 10 Aug 2011, 05:08 (Ref:2937949)   #121
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My original idea was to use an air powered ram jack mounted under/ near the roll hoop and powered by its own supply which could be activated from inside or outside the car and would simply force the canopy off and push the car off any obstacle it was against, allowing the driver to escape. The whole unit could easily be self contained.
Would imo be safer than you would be curretly if you were upturned in a gravel trap.
But is that powerful enough to open the canopy if the car is on its back?
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Old 10 Aug 2011, 06:39 (Ref:2937957)   #122
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But is that powerful enough to open the canopy if the car is on its back?
Easy!
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Old 10 Aug 2011, 11:58 (Ref:2938059)   #123
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But is that powerful enough to open the canopy if the car is on its back?
More importantly, is it slow and controlled so that if a driver has a neck injury, it doesn't make it worse?
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Old 10 Aug 2011, 14:55 (Ref:2938129)   #124
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It could have a mechanical limited or tether and then the rest would be undone by.driver or marshall. Of course you would need a fail safe and an accidntal firing safety as well...maybe that encasement foam to fill thecockpit and be fire retardant...there seems to be many problems to overcome, more than a cockpit solves
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Old 17 Oct 2011, 00:04 (Ref:2972312)   #125
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Following the death of Dan Wheldon at the 2011 Las Vegas IndyCar race, the closed cockpit question has to be asked once again.
Would it have been possible to prevent this horrible result?

How many others escaped through sheer dumb luck?

Footage of 2011 Las Vegas (fatal) accident.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1qmMPnLL1U
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