Riccardo Patrese 91/92

[Guy Goddard2]

Having just watched the 91 season review which centered on the "Mansell/Senna" battle I couldn't help but thinking that Patrese was the man of the year and in many ways deserved the title.

The first four races he outpaced favourite Mansell, took 5 brilliant poles(one in Spain with Mansells spare car) in 1991, only bad luck ruined his title chances with a gearbox failure in Phoenix while 3rd, engine in Imola while leading, third at Monoco until he hit Mondena's oil,Berger pushed him off at Silverstone while 3rd and clutch failure in Monza while leading.

92 was different as he couldn't match Mansell as he had done in 91 but still took 10 second places,1 win in Suzuka, 4 retirements due to car failure and 1 where he hit Berger.

An overlooked driver in many respects and one who deserved to be world champion in 91 in my view.(he was a great ambassador for the sport)TGF take note




Guy

[Patrese256]

Needless to say I would totally agree. RP had the measure of Mansell and outqualified him more often than not. His performance at the Portugese GP was stunning, his pole lap being one of the best I have seen. All of this in the context of Mansell being brought back to Williams as the man who would win the title for Renault.

In 1992 the new Williams simply did not suit his style of driving. It required more balls than brain to drive and Mansell was able to muscle it around quicker than RP.

Still, after 224 GP's Riccardo had proved he was capable of winning races, and was the very best team player any team owner could have driving for his team.

Had he not left Williams (or broken his Benetton contract to return) his total of GP's would be approaching 300!!

A true gentleman.

[Guy Goddard2]

Patrese had done more than enough to secure the Williams seat for 93 and it has been documented many times that Prost forced him out with Renault although behind closed doors Williams were not happy.
Even Mansell new how important Patrese was for the team and did everything he could to keep him when this failed Mansell left for many reasons, one being of Patrese being let go. As two very good team mates Mansell paid Patrese back by helping him 2 second in the championship.
Renault owes much to both of these drivers for the success in F1.
The 1991 season was a credit to F1 and when you watch the 2002 season you realise how much of a mockery Ferrari have made it in the way they have used team orders unlike Williams useage in 1991 which benifited the excitment as it should.

[BootsOntheSide]

Sorry but I don't agree. For most of his time at Williams Mansell outpaced him heavily, usually being 2 seconds behind on a regular basis would bury him down the order, but the Williams was far enough ahead for it to still be good for at least the second row (even Yoong was often that close to Webber), and Patrese had more experience than Mansell. Second place in the 1992 Williams was no achievement whatsoever.

He was only faster at the start of 1991 because he was used to the car, and specifically its unusual Active Suspension system. By the end of the season he was dominated by Nigel.

Mansell had far more good results lost due to technical failures in 1991- gearbox in Canada and Brazil, blameless collisions with Alesi and Brundle at Imola, electrics while leading at Spa, and the gearbox in Japan. Even in 1992 Nigel had an engine failure at Suzuka, gearbox at Monza and a rare piece of Senna brainfade taking him out at Adelaide.

I'd agree about him being a gentleman, and having made a good #2 driver, but he wasn't anywhere near being the man of 1991.

[Sato san]

Ricardo had a great start to the 91 season , but it didnt take to long before Nigel turned the table on him.......not taking nothing away from Ricardo though , as early 91 he drove superbly especially in Mexico !.....But i dont think Patrese was the man of the year though .

[Mr V]

Originally posted by Patrese256
All of this in the context of Mansell being brought back to Williams as the man who would win the title for Renault.

But Mansell was the man who did win the title for Renault (and Williams of course). Patrese was a very good driver, but very much in the No 2/DC mould. Dispite having a very bad start to the season, 3 retirements in the first 3 races, 6 retirements overall and 1 disqualification (that Riccardo went on to win) Mansell was within 24 points of Senna at the end of the season if memory serves me right, had it not been for so many early retirements throughout the season the Mansell would have brought Renault (and Williams of course ) their title in '91 also.

We all know what happened in '92, Mansell upped his game to another level and Patrese was (relitively) know where. With Prost coming in to Williams in '93, once again Patrese would have been a very good number 2 but fearing that it would be a Mansell/Prost line up he went to Benetton.

[Adam43]

Originally posted by BootsOntheSide
He was only faster at the start of 1991 because he was used to the car, and specifically its unusual Active Suspension system. By the end of the season he was dominated by Nigel.

I didn't see it this way. I thought that Nigel got the upper hand because as the active car developed it suited him much more.
Patrese never had full confidence in the active car. It needed a much more confident style. In some ways the car wasn't driven by feel and progression, but by blind faith that it would stick. And this is certainly Mansell's forte.

And perhaps it is also why Prost didn't look so confident in the car in 1993 too. Although I consider Prost a better driver.

Patrese had some good races, one was Mexico 1991. Patrick Head certainly rated him.

Originally posted by BootsOntheSide
...technical failures in 1991- gearbox in Canada...

[Patrese256]

Originally posted by BootsOntheSide
Sorry but I don't agree. For most of his time at Williams Mansell outpaced him heavily, usually being 2 seconds behind on a regular basis

Nigel Roebuck:

in 1991 Mansell said this of his team-mate: "I take Riccardo's speed this year as a great compliment to me." Er, how so? "Well, because I'm the only one who can motivate him." Ah, yes. Had Patrese been inclined to return the back-handed compliment, he might have suggested that perhaps Mansell had overdone the motivation: that season it was not until Silverstone, after all, that the great man managed to out-qualify him...

Yes, Mansell out-paced him in 1992 but this article goes some way to explaining why, and let it not be forgotten that much of Mansell's pace in the FW14 can be credited to Patrese's development work.

As for there usually being a 2 sec gap the facts do not support this - it happened at the Belgian Grand Prix due to changeable weather conditions, and (almost) at Silverstone where Mansell was on another planet to everyone else.

1991 was the first time in his career that Patrese had a reliable and competitive car underneath him, and he proved his ability.

[Patrese256]

Originally posted by mr v
But Mansell was the man who did win the title for Renault (and Williams of course)...Dispite having a very bad start to the season, 3 retirements in the first 3 races, 6 retirements overall...

My point was that Mansell was offered a great deal to come out of "retirement" and yet it was Patrese who led the way for much of 1991, despite five retirements of his own.

[BootsOntheSide]

Originally posted by Patrese256

1991 was the first time in his career that Patrese had a reliable and competitive car underneath him, and he proved his ability. [/B]

What about the 1983 Brabham that Piquet won the championship in, and Patrese could only win in when he was gifted the final race in South Africa (much the same as Japan 1992; he had 2 championship winning cars (one of them winning it at an embarassing canter) and won the grand total of zero races in them. Hardly the mark of a leading driver.

Ricardo was going to build up a championship advantage over Mansell in 1991, Nigel's bad luck was all at the start of the season. If you turn the year around we get a much mroe accurate showing of the gulf in quality. Nigel was probably very disheartened about the whole thing, expecting a championship-capable car and getting an unreliable mess.

[Patrese256]

Originally posted by BootsOntheSide
What about the 1983 Brabham that Piquet won the championship in...

Indeed, Piquet won the title in the Brabham BT52 but Patrese's season was littered with mechanical failures because his car was carrying the BMW development parts that were added to Piquet's car when they had been made reliable. Again, Patrese's contribution to his team-mate's success was very significant, but does little (on the surface) to boost his own standing.

Originally posted by BootsOntheSide
If you turn the year around we get a much mroe accurate showing of the gulf in quality......

I would suggest if you do that you get a picture that suits your view more than mine

[Guy Goddard2]

If you look at Patrese's qualifying in 91 rather than the race results or failures against Mansell's he was the better driver.
However we all view it Patrese was a great sportsman who in some respects helped Mansell achieve his goal.
The Mansell/Patrese driver line up is the best Williams have had to date.

[Adam43]

Best Williams line-up to date? that's quite a claim:

Jones/Reutemann
Rosberg/Mansell
Piquet/Mansell
Prost/Hill
Senna/Hill
Hill/Villeneuve

It might not have been ideal for teh team at times (although they always won the constructors -team- title), but Piquet/Mansell is the partnership I most enjoyed! And they, I think, had the most talent between them.

[Guy Goddard2]

More a best partnership from a working point of view, in that they did get on and compliemented each other on/off the track where as others battled with each other.



Guy

[f1manoz]

Patrese was a perfect number two driver, but was never going to be a world champion. He was too nice to be one!

But he was and continues to be a popular figure around the Williams factory. It was only a couple of years ago that the Williams team invited him back to test one of their cars, and from what I remember he put in quite a good lap time.

[Edgar Jessop]

Patrese's performance vs The Walrus was only SLIGHTLY compromised during '91 and '92 by the fact that whenever he made the mistake of being faster on the Friday he found that his set up or even his engine had miraculously gone into the other car

[BootsOntheSide]

Originally posted by Patrese256

I would suggest if you do that you get a picture that suits your view more than mine

Whichever way you look at the picure, Mansell got more points despite more significant mechanical failures and otehr misfortunes.

[racer69]

Patrese on the whole was probably outshone by Mansell over the two years of 1991 & 1992, but as has been alluded to earlier he did alot of the testing and outdid Mansell early in 1991.

His 1992 season was abit like DC's 1998, the best car but alot of bad luck and only 1 win.

For 1993, didn't Patrese sign with Beneton believing that Mansell and Prost were tied up at Williams, then Mansell ran off to do Indycars and RP was offered a place, but he didn't like to go against a contract.

[Bononi]

Originally posted by AdamAshmore
Best Williams line-up to date? that's quite a claim:

Jones/Reutemann
Rosberg/Mansell
Piquet/Mansell
Prost/Hill
Senna/Hill
Hill/Villeneuve

It might not have been ideal for teh team at times (although they always won the constructors -team- title), but Piquet/Mansell is the partnership I most enjoyed! And they, I think, had the most talent between them.

Exactly. I totally agree with you...

[Guy Goddard2]

Originally posted by Edgar Jessop
Patrese's performance vs The Walrus was only SLIGHTLY compromised during '91 and '92 by the fact that whenever he made the mistake of being faster on the Friday he found that his set up or even his engine had miraculously gone into the other car

Frank Williams or Patrick Head would not have entertained engine swops for Mansell on this basis but they both shared information on set up, a true story was at Ferrari when Prost annoyed that Mansell had out qualifyed him swop cars without Mansells knowledge until the Sunday race.

Whilst its mentioned Patrese still has links with Williams can anyone complete the story of Patrese in 93, did he decide to retire or was he simply pushed out and has he done any racing since?

[Damon]

For me the 1991 season is still the last truely excellent season of F1 racing. The best man won in the end but after having to fight for it. The season showed two of the top men of the generation at their absolute best in cars that still had to be driven. It was sporting and fair the whole way through with not the slightest hint of controversy. A true demonstration of how good the sport can be.

On topic though I have to say that Patrese is another Alesi that simply found himself in the wrong place at the wrong time. He was a solid driver and from my few meetings with him at Goodwood and damn nice chap too.

Guy, Patrese left in 1993 because he didn't like being forced to play no.2 to a young upstart by the name of Micheal Schumacher. Patrese didn't like the way Briatorie and Brawn where building the team around Schu and so got out.

[Mr V]

Originally posted by Damon
For me the 1991 season is still the last truely excellent season of F1 racing.

Watched the review of it again today, what a good season, plus seeing the likes of Tyrrell on the front row of the grid at Monaco, plus finishing second at Canada, or the Dallara's up there in the points.....brilliant.

[MrPress]

I'd say that the Hill Prost pairing worked quite well, certainally it was VERY good for Damon, who may well have learnt a lot about testing and setups (which was what he was best at) from Alain.

[Damon]

Hill was testing for Williams a long time before Prost joined the team.

[Adam43]

I still think that Hill learnt a lot from Prost! Even if Damon has been driving a Williams for over a year. Damon did contribute lots to the Williams of that era, but Prost's vast experience counts for a lot.

Damon had a very privileged situation of being paired with Mansell, Prost and, all too briefly, Senna.

Guy I don't remember the Prost engine story. Presumably this was on Ferrari's say so (being Ferrari's best chance)? After all Prost shared fairly with Senna at McClaren even when their rivalry was at it's bitterest. (But I am just guessing).