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Old 18 Feb 2008, 11:39 (Ref:2131703)   #26
terence
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terence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridterence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
It will fit in nicely there, Big Engine,Wheels Moved etc etc.
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Old 18 Feb 2008, 11:42 (Ref:2131708)   #27
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simon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
its still got the Ford Cortina badge! I thought if I came clean that it had a large engine I was free to run it as a sillouette in the hot rod class ;o)
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Old 18 Feb 2008, 13:23 (Ref:2131784)   #28
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john ruston has a real shot at the podium!john ruston has a real shot at the podium!john ruston has a real shot at the podium!john ruston has a real shot at the podium!
Off topic-300000 people and perhaps the Yanks are correct,it is the best entertainment I have watched for many years,even better than 6 hrs!
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Old 18 Feb 2008, 19:51 (Ref:2132049)   #29
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And its got points ignition so must be OK.
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Old 21 Feb 2008, 09:58 (Ref:2133994)   #30
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Originally Posted by simon drabble
sadly as the committee is increasingly being added to by fellow hot rod owners it is unlikely to ever change. The ironic part is that Alfa Romeo didn't even produce a 2 litre engine until the early 70's so the whole thing is more modsports than historic pre 66.
I am sure that this series does have a place in racing but I personally dont think its with the HSCC as it dilutes the other series.
I stopped racing with HRSR when they reversed the decision to go "legit" on engine sizes.
Actually, the three new committee members all run 1600cc Lotus Cortinas. These cars have to run at a minimum weight of 825 kg ( 905kg including 80 kg for the driver) whereas an App K 1600 Lotus Cortina can run at 751 kg. As both the HRSR class car and the FIA class car run the same type and size of tyres the difference is then between engine power, suspension and brakes for the HRSR car against the 74 kg weight advantage of the App K car.

I understand that a good App K engine gives around 178 bhp (so 237 bhp/tonne) and a HRSR spec 1600 gives around 185 bhp (224 bhp/tonne).
The App K car has around a 6% power to weight ratio advantage to offset the braking and suspension deficiencies.

Are you now classing all HRSR class cars as 'Hotrods' rather than only the oversize engine cars?
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Old 21 Feb 2008, 10:08 (Ref:2133998)   #31
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simon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
maybe you could outline what else makes them non FIA.... I think possibly discs all round which is a great advantage. This is not a personal dig (although all HRSR hot rod owners seem to think so) its just that it comes across as an extraordinary set of rules which have been designed to accomodate some cars that are obsolete everywhere else. Why not m ake it proper Group 5 and let in 911's and twin cam Anglia's atc... or make it true to 66 (which could include some non FIA mods as ran in 66) but to have this mish mash of rules is illogical.
Why do you allow 2 litre Alfa's when that engine wasn't even produced until the mid 70's?
I see John Penfold's old car is on the mkt with car dealer Mike Abbas advertised as having FIA papers - that is a joke, the car is as far removed from an FIA Alfa as my L200 is....
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Old 21 Feb 2008, 12:37 (Ref:2134110)   #32
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Originally Posted by simon drabble
maybe you could outline what else makes them non FIA.... I think possibly discs all round which is a great advantage. This is not a personal dig (although all HRSR hot rod owners seem to think so) its just that it comes across as an extraordinary set of rules which have been designed to accomodate some cars that are obsolete everywhere else. Why not m ake it proper Group 5 and let in 911's and twin cam Anglia's atc... or make it true to 66 (which could include some non FIA mods as ran in 66) but to have this mish mash of rules is illogical.
Why do you allow 2 litre Alfa's when that engine wasn't even produced until the mid 70's?
I see John Penfold's old car is on the mkt with car dealer Mike Abbas advertised as having FIA papers - that is a joke, the car is as far removed from an FIA Alfa as my L200 is....
Not taken personally, Simon. We do want constructive comment from all interested parties.

The main differences are brakes and suspensions. Discs are allowed all round but the benefit is not so great as the limiting factor is the grip (or non-grip!) of the Dunlop CR 65s that we run like the FIA cars. Too much brake makes the tyres slide. The main benefit is the ease of front to rear bias.
Suspension has to use the same design of the original (i.e. using a Cortina as an example, McPherson strut with TCAs and anti-roll bar at front and leaf springs with radius rods or coil springs with radius rods and 'A' bracket at the back0. We then allow additional locating rods such as tramp bars, watts linkages and panhard rods.
Gearboxes must use original design cases but 'dog' engagement and 5 speeds are allowed. hewland did a 5 speed box in period but only for 1.0 and 1.3 Anglias as they are not strong enough for Twin cam power outputs.

The 2 litre engine is allowed for Alfas and Cortinas under the same family regulation.

I can't comment on the ex John Penfold as I haven't seen the ad and it's not an HRSR matter. If the owner of the car registered to enter the App K classes at HRSR races it would have to produce, and comply with, the FIA papers as a 1600cc car.
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Old 21 Feb 2008, 12:59 (Ref:2134136)   #33
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simon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
but you agree that 2 litre Alfa engines were not produced until the mid 70's...
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Old 21 Feb 2008, 13:20 (Ref:2134153)   #34
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Originally Posted by simon drabble
but you agree that 2 litre Alfa engines were not produced until the mid 70's...
Not sure about this, Simon. I think the 1600 grew to 1750cc then 1962cc, but I am not sure of dates. However, you are correct that it was not a pre-66 engine. But then again neither was there ever a production Lotus Twin Cam above 1600cc.
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Old 21 Feb 2008, 13:29 (Ref:2134165)   #35
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simon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
quick Alfa history lesson courtesy of Wikepedia
Sprint GT (1600cc) 1963-66
1750 GT Veloce (1750cc) 1967-72
2000 GT Veloce (1962cc) 1971-76

Hence you can see why I think its a little creative to allow 2 litre Alfa engines in a pre 66 series! The bodyshell where different although to be fair to a casual observer the step front pre 66 is not dissimilar to the 2000 GTV in the same way that a 70's mini is not dissimilar to a pre 66 one....
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Old 25 Feb 2008, 12:00 (Ref:2137475)   #36
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the engine size debate was voted backwards in 2003 at a committee meeting I attended, a meeting mostly attended by Anglia and Alfa owners !!!

I think most lasting and drivable Ford Lotus TC engines run nearer 165-170 BHP rather than 180. you need some torque with a Cortina, its a bit heavier than a 23b/Merlyn MK7 !

either way the power to weight ratio is similar for many cars in HRSR/FiA spec, I still think its ludicrous to chop up the car, remove all its period appearance, swathe it in Plastic so it looks crap then add a load of ballast! but thats just my opinion.

the big difference is that HRSR regs allow virtually totally free engine spec, materials, internal geometry, component weight etc, therefore one can utilise the very latest technology and performance gains that go with it, lightweight pistons, H section Rods, NJ cranks, ally flywheels etc etc, more revs, more power, more reliability. therefore they argue they need the brakes, fair enough, maybe they do, but if they insisted on period correct spec, even if not FiA then costs would drop massively to be mildly competitive, therefore most likely appealing to many more entrants, many of which already have such cars.

whether most FiA cars are legal or not is another matter, there isn't an FiA series with any eligibility scrutineering, therefore one might and can legitimately argue the HRSR series is the best of the bunch as at least they enforce their regs !!!

we've said all this before anyway and I'm sure I'm not exactly Mr POpular with some of the HRSR I'm still seriously thinking of racing with HRSR again this season, I've rejoined the HSCC already . . .

and I still havent EVER got a reply to my original question

How can you justify running a pre66 saloon series to post 66 Group 5 regs ?

my guess is its a hangover from the ICS days and anything goes 70's/80's spec racing before the cars where considered 'historic'
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Old 25 Feb 2008, 16:59 (Ref:2137674)   #37
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Simon, The Alfa ran in the USA with a overbored 1750cc. motor 1953cc.
So the 2 litre Cortina & Alfa are fine.
Group5 did not start until 1968.
Zef, nice to see you will race with HRSR, keep out of the way of those Mini,s & Imp,s.
Have fun this year & keep the protest,s to a minimum.
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Old 26 Feb 2008, 07:30 (Ref:2138145)   #38
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Originally Posted by Good Times
Simon, The Alfa ran in the USA with a overbored 1750cc. motor 1953cc.
So the 2 litre Cortina & Alfa are fine.
Group5 did not start until 1968.
Zef, nice to see you will race with HRSR, keep out of the way of those Mini,s & Imp,s.
Have fun this year & keep the protest,s to a minimum.
fantastic PR there for the HRSR

maybe I'll go to Dijon with U2TC instead afterall
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Old 26 Feb 2008, 07:48 (Ref:2138149)   #39
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Originally Posted by Good Times
Simon, The Alfa ran in the USA with a overbored 1750cc. motor 1953cc.
So the 2 litre Cortina & Alfa are fine.
Group5 did not start until 1968.
Zef, nice to see you will race with HRSR, keep out of the way of those Mini,s & Imp,s.
Have fun this year & keep the protest,s to a minimum.
thanks for the info - what year did the Americans do that and was that Alfa themselves or are you saying that a clubbie bored one out - if so I guess that comes back to what everyone is saying, namely that you are running to Group 5. That is fine but why not run to complete Gp5 rather than a hybrid of it so that a few committee members and their mates cars are catered for given they cant race them anywhere else....
I am not sure of the relevance of the Imps and Mini's and protests - have the driving standards slipped since I was last out with them a few years ago?
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Old 27 Feb 2008, 18:12 (Ref:2139458)   #40
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Getting seriuously p****d off now as this is the third attempt to post a response so rather than go into the details for the third time I'll just make a list of the points in answer to Simon's post:

1. Our Tech regs para 5(2) state ".... herein represent a qualified and clarified interpretation of the FIA Special Touring Cars Group 5 Definitions and Specifications, as contained in the RAC handbook for the season 1966 chapter vii, pages 251 & 252." So who are the "...everyone is saying" ?

2. Why the snide comment about ".... a few committee members and their mates". At the 1999 AGM all the then committee, including Glen Maskell, David Colley and I, voted for the big engines to be banned. David and I were at that time running 2 litre Cortina (me) and 2 litre Alfa (David) and Glen Maskell had his 1500cc Anglia.

3. All members have an opportunity to vote on this issue but almost half have not yet voted.

Peter Wray
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Old 27 Feb 2008, 18:58 (Ref:2139499)   #41
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rogerwills should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridrogerwills should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Peter, I know of some members who have joined this season (as they intend to race) who are not that impressed that they cannot vote. Just FYI.
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Old 28 Feb 2008, 00:31 (Ref:2139761)   #42
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Peter, I know of some members who have joined this season (as they intend to race) who are not that impressed that they cannot vote. Just FYI.
Roger
My response to your earlier query on this gave the reasons for the restriction on voting to the 2007 members list. It would surely be unreasonable to open the vote to persons who may only have joined for that purpose only.
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Old 28 Feb 2008, 12:40 (Ref:2140069)   #43
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rogerwills should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridrogerwills should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Sure. But I doubt that is the case. As this is an issue that affects the future of the series, not the past, it should be open to people who will race in the future.
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Old 28 Feb 2008, 13:15 (Ref:2140092)   #44
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The people who run the club obviously want to contiue to run it and have probably done lots of work to ensure the club continues .They do not want newcomers to change their ideas on how things should be run and if they have got it correct it will succeed and if not its history.Thats life and lets face it competitors dont get much real say in how many of the series are run.This one seems to think all those Webb inspired cars of 60's have historical value.
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Old 28 Feb 2008, 16:09 (Ref:2140179)   #45
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Webb inspired cars?
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Old 28 Feb 2008, 19:50 (Ref:2140292)   #46
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John Webb.the 60's/70's chief of British Motorsport based at his Brands Hatch power base.The God.He did more damage than any other person at the time to British Club racing dreaming up series so only he could run them on his tracks.Seems a bit like some of the dictators today!
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Old 28 Feb 2008, 22:16 (Ref:2140426)   #47
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This one seems to think all those Webb inspired cars of 60's have historical value.
I'm not going to comment on the the influence of Webb, good or bad; I don't know enough about it, but I think you need to be a bit more specific about what constitute 'Webb inspired cars', John. Were there such beasts, and if so, what made them different? In any event, if such cars ran legitimately in series in the 1960's, they are as much a part of our racing history as anything else. The question is surely whether they would fit comfortably in any existing series, or should have their own.

I think that Roger's initial post was entirely sensible and understandable. I can sympathise with the position he takes on this. Equally, Peter has endeavoured to address it. However, I'm a bit concerned at the turn this discussion has taken and reference to dictators; it's often an accusation directed at those who take charge of issues when others would spend so much time prevaricating that nothing gets done. The fact is some of us will never agree to every decision made by leaders in whatever sphere we operate in. I must confess that the members of HRSR committee don't immediately strike me as dictatorial, so I hope that such comments were not specifically directed at them. I am anxious, as we all should be, that this discussion remains constructive.

The issue of new members voting may be a red herring. It really depends on what proportion of the total membership they represent. If it is low, then you could argue it does not matter either way, whether they vote or not, since they are unlikely to influence the outcome, provided pre existing members are motivated to vote. The only time that argument falls down is when the vote is close, and those new members (if they all vote one way) can tip the decision (I'm assuming here a simple majority carries the day!). However in this latter scenario, it would also mean that new members have merely added their voice to a substantial number of existing members who have voted the same way. Something maybe for the committee to consider?

It's fair to say that most historic series are laid on for the benefit of the racing members, with spectators a secondary consideration. Understandable really since it is the owners/drivers who incur the pain and the pleasure. All I can say is that, as a spectator I'm sure I will enjoy watching you race these old cars whatever the regs apply. The important thing for me is reasonable sized grids with a good variety of cars, and preferably, close racing.
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Old 29 Feb 2008, 00:02 (Ref:2140495)   #48
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The dictators referred to are not the HRSR who presumably are small group of blokes who want to run in the direction they are comfortable with and the newcomers want to change things'.Best of luck to them and I hope it does not mess the club up
My point is that many of the series that Webb dreamt up in his time as king of circuits were very ,very loose and gave berth to some very unusual cars ,engine sizes.car shapes etc.In the thirty/forty years that have past since his period in charge these very special specials have been used as the basis of fact and have screwed History.As far as I am concerned the continuation cars are doing the same thing and starting another debasement of history.Hope this discussion within this club is not steered by faulty interpretation of history

Probably wrong thread to introduce the point but just a thought
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Old 29 Feb 2008, 08:42 (Ref:2140671)   #49
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I have never seen JR write a post in such depth before so clearly this is something he feels passionately about rather than being his normal mischevious stirrer!
I thin the point is this - is HRSR a 1966 group 5 series? If so then 2 litre Alfa's have no place, nor do 2 litre LC's. Peter and teh rest of teh committee have to understand that if you are an FIA V8 then you will race with them as you can still win but if you are an FIA Lotus Cortina (for example) you are not going to enjoy being blown into history by hot rod L-C's and Anglia's as it is demoralizing and to be frank wrong!
If the cars were only allowed period mods (rather than some of the internals that they currently run under HRSR rules) then it would be more realistic.
Peter - if you had an FIA Lotus Cortina or Anglia would you race with HRSR or would you choose a series that is only FIA so you ran where you should in field?
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Old 29 Feb 2008, 08:58 (Ref:2140679)   #50
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terence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridterence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Ultimatly, the various clubs are to blame for ALL of the unrest concerning illegal engines etc etc. IF these series had been better policed when they started,I doubt there would be so much backlash now! Because of the amount of publicity that has arisen,anything new HAS to be one hundred percent correct,otherwise there will be another bout of this unrest in the years to come. Simon,JR a stirrer? bit harsh dont you think.
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