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Old 23 Aug 2014, 13:58 (Ref:3446546)   #26
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So, I don't understand why you cannot have a bit shorter tracks... I mean, that was the actual reasoning(/excuse) used for Hockenheim's total destruction, shorter laps = audiences could see the cars more often in the Grand Prix. Today you cannot have new short tracks or long tracks or fast tracks or slow tracks or simple tracks, every Grade 1 track needs to have 5,5 km standardized length, same copypaste technical sectors and same general speed. They all look the same too, but that's not (necessarily) all down to Tilke and gang but the FIA safety directives. Meanwhile the old pre/non-Tilke Grade 1 tracks just get the asphalt-treatment and in some cases ugly plastic surgeries (Silverstone etc)
This is spot on. I can't for my life understand how "the people in charge" think that sterile, lookalike circuits is the answer.

As for the WEC they should look at circuits like Potrero and Road America instead of Shanghai and the likes.
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Old 23 Aug 2014, 15:17 (Ref:3446576)   #27
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Watching the PC/Lites Q from VIR - that's how you modify venues, widened track and surely more safe yet the character has been totally preserved. What an awesome track.
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Old 23 Aug 2014, 16:03 (Ref:3446589)   #28
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Sorry, TF110, but I just have to let out a long one here.

I've seen Grade 1 proposals and circuits, as well as 1T circuits, that certainly ought to be able to get a full Grade 1 as a formality. A number of those from other firms do NOT look like Tilke's cookie-cutter affairs. So, yes, a fair bit of criticism CAN be laid at his feet. Dubai Autodrome and the French GP proposal from Apex don't look like Tilke designs. Paolo Pinheiro came up with the Autodromo Internacional do Algarve, which most certainly does NOT resemble any of Hermann's efforts.

In addition, a number of Tilke's circuits patently violate the FIA's own circuit guidelines, and still get approved.

1. Turns 1, 3, and 4 at Istanbul appear to be off-camber, which is to be avoided altogether, if at all possible. The same can be said of a few of the esse bends, and the exit of Turn 19, at Austin. The exit of Turn 2 at Shanghai is off-camber as well.

2. Turn 8 at Istanbul, and its reverse "copy" at Austin, are cheats to get around the rules on decreasing-radius corners. Turn 4 at Sochi is a blatant rule-breaker on that front. The same is true of the Turn 1/2 combination at Shanghai, and Turn 10/11 at Buddh does very much the same. To top it off, Turns 12-13, 14-15, and 16 at Fuji don't follow the FIA rules regarding decreasing-radius corners, either.

3. Eau Rouge/Raidillion has been flat-out for some time, so that flaunts the 2km limit on straights, since from La Source to Les Combes is now 100m more than that; I bring this one up because the round of changes from 2006/07 made that stretch longer.

4. I'm not sure that the narrowing of the front straight at Fuji before Turn 1 is in keeping with FIA rules. I have a similar concern with the narrowing of the road after Turn 1 at both Hockenheim and the Nurburgring, especially with them coming right where pit-out rejoins the track. Turn 2 at Sochi sees a norrowing in the road, which should be inadmissible under FIA rules. Yes, there IS room there to have a different corner profile to eliminate this issue; they CHOSE to NOT do so.

5. (A.) The pit exits at Hockenheim, Nurburgring, and Abu Dhabi have some real, potential safety issues, with the main one being unusual, possible/probable interference with cars on the racing line when re-entering the track. Abu Dhabi also has that drop into a very tight turn and the very confining tunnel/channel as it comes back up to track level.
(B.) The pit entries at Catalunya, Red Bull Ring, Shanghai, Singapore, and Spa-Francorchamps have problems, too. For Catalunya, Red Bull Ring, and Singapore, it is a matter of possibly interfering with cars on the racing line as a driver swings abruptly to the inside. At Singapore, I'm surprised I haven't seen someone lose control trying to make the pits, and since that whole part of the track is purpose-built, what's their excuse for this? Shanghai has that fairly sharp corner at the end of a high-speed run in the middle of its pit entry. The new-for-2007 pit-in at Spa-Francorchamps is simply, dangerously narrow, in addition to the approach for it through that double-hairpin being hazardous in its own right when there's traffic around.
(C.) Both the pit-in and pit-out at Korea are unacceptably problematic. Pit-in has the issues of line interference, and just being so fast while the guys are incredibly on edge. Pit-out is vulnerable to line interference and incursions from cars running wide at Turn 1.

6. They make all the fuss about huge run-offs being necessary, and then find excuses to blow that one off at their convenience, too. Abu Dhabi is a purpose-built circuit, yet how many of its turns have "compromised" run-off space? Half of Korea was supposed to be a street circuit, so they just built it with Turn 2 and 13-17 with fairly minimal run-off. Turn 3 at Singapore (still part of the new construction for the track) has quite limited room. Valencia, not technically a street circuit, had several high-speed corners with little to no run-off. I will have to see more photos of Sochi to give a full report, but I can see several potential locations for nasty impacts into armco already.

7. Though not mentioned among the codified FIA circuit guidelines, several spots on some of Tilke's more recent tracks violate one of the general, cardinal rules of track design. That is, you do not, intentionally, design a corner wherein the exit is narrower than the entry. Turns 3, 4, and 16 at Buddh break this stipulation, as do Turns 1, 11, and 12 at Austin. Turn 1 at Singapore (part of the permanent facilities) does this, and it sounds like Turn 2 at Sochi does, also.

8. With the 2006/07 re-work, I'm not sure that there is 250m of straight from the start to La Source at Spa-Francorchamps, as is supposed to be the case for new F1 circuits. And now that I think about it, I'm wondering if the re-done Hockenheim is cutting it close on that one.

9. Are there any of the rules that Monaco doesn't break? (Remember, several corners at Monaco have been modified since the current rules framework was enacted.) And if these "safety" provisions are truly necessary, then street circuits simply CAN'T be considered admissible, period. (Baku, anybody?)

So, Tilke actually has quite a history of walking right past, or even through, the FIA's own circuit rules, guidelines, and/or recommendations, and getting his designs approved anyway. So, whether it's saying that Tilke is limited by the rules, other firms would do exactly the same things with their designs, the FIA uses some apparent rhyme or reason, or that this is because of "safety", NONE of these arguments holds any water, based on the evident record we have before us.
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Old 23 Aug 2014, 19:25 (Ref:3446642)   #29
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What did Hermann once say, something like if he was allowed to create Nordschleife in present day he totally would. Somehow I just fail to see that happening. Even if we pretended that bit what Purist just said didn't exist. Yes given free hands and no restrictions on site (ie he's not requested to design a circuit on 1,5 acre spot in the middle of Algerian desert) he could construct 20km circuits in deep forests - but do we really think the layouts would radically differ from the same exact designs he's been doing for the last 15+ seasons??? It's not the FIA that is requesting clone 90 degree technical sector nonsense and other things for every circuit surely.

I imagine the hardest crowd to sell these new crappy tracks is not actually the old school people, but the "Playstation generation" that's used to fabulous fantasy tracks in games. Then they see awful grey parking lots used in reality in F1...

PS when you type Tilke's name in google
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Old 24 Aug 2014, 00:17 (Ref:3446699)   #30
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Tilke gets approval from the fia.. with 'illegal' tracks, so they go against their own rules! Where have we seen that before? Oh, right- from the fia! The point Im making with 'you can talk about things and label a guy', is that the truth is it matters not who designs these tracks. Even though Tilke gets a bad rap, hes actually gone outside some of the restrictions put in place. So if hes pushing the envelope already, whats the likelyhood another design or designer gets approval? The long post only strengthens my point. Which is the incompetence and flip-flopping of the governing body on these issues. Even if theres another designer who comes up with an interesting design, how do they know its approved unless they try to appease to the fia? Unless you dont care for grade 1 status, dont expect change.
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Old 24 Aug 2014, 15:40 (Ref:3446896)   #31
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3. Eau Rouge/Raidillion has been flat-out for some time, so that flaunts the 2km limit on straights, since from La Source to Les Combes is now 100m more than that; I bring this one up because the round of changes from 2006/07 made that stretch longer.

8. With the 2006/07 re-work, I'm not sure that there is 250m of straight from the start to La Source at Spa-Francorchamps, as is supposed to be the case for new F1 circuits. And now that I think about it, I'm wondering if the re-done Hockenheim is cutting it close on that one.
According to Allan McNish and the graphic on the BBC, La Source to Les Combes is 1850m.

And according to David Coulthard on his BBC grid walk, the distance to La Source is 300m.
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Old 25 Aug 2014, 15:26 (Ref:3447358)   #32
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Let's hope Indycar and Toronto can work something out for next year, Mosport has already suffered enough upgrade damage in recent years!

http://racer.com/indycar/item/107782...-hello-mosport
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Old 25 Aug 2014, 15:34 (Ref:3447359)   #33
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True on Mosport end but that particular case is no worry either way as IndyCar doesn't demand track sanitation changes, only NASCAR and F1 do (and bikes). ICS is willing to run on roughest and bumpiest circuits imaginable, they don't care - thankfully.

Anyway, the mere mention of Mont-Tremblant there just got me super excited no matter how unlikely it is - we need the most beautiful venue of them all back on the North American radar!!! I believe the "highest" series running there now is Ferrari Challenge NA!
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Old 25 Aug 2014, 16:51 (Ref:3447374)   #34
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True on Mosport end but that particular case is no worry either way as IndyCar doesn't demand track sanitation changes, only NASCAR and F1 do (and bikes). ICS is willing to run on roughest and bumpiest circuits imaginable, they don't care - thankfully.

Anyway, the mere mention of Mont-Tremblant there just got me super excited no matter how unlikely it is - we need the most beautiful venue of them all back on the North American radar!!! I believe the "highest" series running there now is Ferrari Challenge NA!
They did have Watkins Glen lower the curbs in the bus stop so the IndyCars could run more easily there. Back before they did that, the NASCAR cars would just slam the curbs.
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Old 25 Aug 2014, 17:59 (Ref:3447393)   #35
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After watching the TUSC race at VIR over the weekend, I really like how that track has been widened and resurfaced. There is nearly no paved, or gravel, runoff, so going offtrack means hitting grass, some people could pull their cars back and others couldn't but it makes for great viewing seeing the track wind through the lawn.
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Old 25 Aug 2014, 18:48 (Ref:3447399)   #36
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After this weekend's spectacular airshow I would also expect VIR to lower their curbs/rumble strips in the esses!
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Old 25 Aug 2014, 18:59 (Ref:3447403)   #37
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TF110, if Tilke can break the FIA's own guidelines and get away with it, and this is the best he can do, then he really isn't that great. Also, technically, he is an architect by trade. So, would the tracks have even gone down this design route to begin with, with the paved run-offs, but also, the absurdly extravagant buildings, if Tilke hadn't come aboard?

And I realized I could add another category of rule-breaking that I've seen on some of the new, or modified old, circuits.

10. As I recall, the first corner, which is defined as the first turn of 45 degrees or more, with a radius of less than 300m, should not have an apex speed exceeding 125-kph. Technically, Abu Dhbai may just violate this one. Hockenheim certain does. Sochi, and Valencia previously, just barely get around this one, I think. Silverstone and Shanghai break this regulation, also.

Ginaro, I don't know if the BBC's graphic is based on the certer line or ideal racing line. Also, I don't know if the measurements take into account the elevation, which rises by a little over 100m from Eau Rouge to Les Combe, and drops the better part of 100m from La Source to Eau Rouge. If it really is 300m to La Source, fine; I will just have to have a look at that grid walk segment.

Joeb, yes, VIR is simply fantastic!

They do, however, need to straighten out some of those track edges, and the racing surface shouldn't be any wider before the auxiliary pit entry than it is after that cut-off. (Having places where you instantly lose track width is just asking for trouble.)
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Old 27 Aug 2014, 05:38 (Ref:3447999)   #38
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More proof that Tilke is incapable of bringing out anything new in this new grey asphalt canyon with large tarmac runoffs separated only by white lines and (literally) identical 90 degree corners and technical sectors
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88b7VqEeisc

And yes I do realize that the area he's been given cannot be transformed into Long Beach, but there are cases when limited space mixed-use districts / urban sporting areas have been converted succesfully into rather fine circuits. Ie Toronto Exhibition Place and Houston Reliant Park for example

edit - Looks like Tilke designed something sort of interesting couple of yeas ago - Atlanta Motorsport Park
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbZMjtM5aBI



It's a bit too stop and go and some of the corners have been copy catted from elsewhere but for what it is - a club track - it seems adequate? Then again can you really judge and compare club tracks with their standards

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Old 27 Aug 2014, 13:49 (Ref:3448159)   #39
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More proof that Tilke is incapable of bringing out anything new in this new grey asphalt canyon with large tarmac runoffs separated only by white lines and (literally) identical 90 degree corners and technical sectors
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88b7VqEeisc
This is what hell looks like....
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Old 27 Aug 2014, 14:11 (Ref:3448167)   #40
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Well at least no disgusting air pollution smog like at Delhi and Shanghai so I guess it's 'healthier', if more boring hell
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Old 27 Aug 2014, 23:32 (Ref:3448344)   #41
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Since we're talking about tracks and how Porsche is now the owner of Kaylami, how about a track built for a customer in motorsport?

Namely, the Audi Sport/Audi Driving Experience track in Neuburg, which is where the main HQ for Audi Sport is supposed to be (along with an administrative office in Inglostadt). It was basically built by/for Audi to have a base near Inglostadt to have more room to work and a test track:

http://www.lwu.ch/wp-content/uploads...burg_small.jpg

Track looks like a cross between a baby Bahrain and LRP with more high speed corners and mostly grass/dirt run-off areas. And it's only about 1.5 miles long from what I've heard (another similarity with LRP).
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Old 28 Aug 2014, 09:19 (Ref:3448439)   #42
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Sochi is built around an Olympic park. What'd you expect, hills and forests ? Not the greatest track, but kinda limited on its layout. Heres the track map-



Its definitely going to be fast. Not much room for error either. The area that bothers me is the end of the back 'straight'. Even a chicane like a reverse bus-stop at Spa wouldve been better. But turn 3 is going to be interesting to see who can run it flat-out.
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Old 28 Aug 2014, 10:25 (Ref:3448464)   #43
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Sochi is built around an Olympic park. What'd you expect, hills and forests ? Not the greatest track, but kinda limited on its layout. Heres the track map-
No, but as I said

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And yes I do realize that the area he's been given cannot be transformed into Long Beach, but there are cases when limited space mixed-use districts / urban sporting areas have been converted succesfully into rather fine circuits. Ie Toronto Exhibition Place and Houston Reliant Park for example
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Old 28 Aug 2014, 10:53 (Ref:3448477)   #44
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Track looks like a cross between a baby Bahrain and LRP with more high speed corners and mostly grass/dirt run-off areas. And it's only about 1.5 miles long from what I've heard (another similarity with LRP).
Bahrain I can see, but LRP? No elevation change, no park land setting... that's really not a comparison that springs to mind. New Jersey Motorsports Park, perhaps. Or Magny-Cours.

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Old 28 Aug 2014, 11:05 (Ref:3448480)   #45
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Bland cousin of Fiorano I'd say.
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Old 28 Aug 2014, 13:51 (Ref:3448528)   #46
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Its definitely going to be fast. Not much room for error either. The area that bothers me is the end of the back 'straight'. Even a chicane like a reverse bus-stop at Spa wouldve been better. But turn 3 is going to be interesting to see who can run it flat-out.
Haha I was just going to say that was the only bit I like about the track..
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Old 28 Aug 2014, 21:14 (Ref:3448646)   #47
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Those three "straights" at Sochi will be fast, with the front and back stretches likely north of 320-kph, and if Turn 4 is flat, the approach to Turn 5 may be 300+kph as well.

However, Turns 2, 5-6, 8-9, 11, 13-18 are all slow or medium speed. Turn 8 is about 140-kph, but all the rest are under 125-kph at apex. Turns 2, 5, 13, 15-16, and 18 will be no more than 100-kph.
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Old 29 Aug 2014, 01:59 (Ref:3448707)   #48
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I mentioned LRP because of similar track length and tight confines. Only difference is that the Audi test track is that way probably in part by design. LRP is somewhat limited by nearby terrain. Namely, a river runs just behind the front straight viewing areas, which is why run off is limited out of the Diving Turn.

Also, there was a planned "long course", but that project got canned due to financial reasons at LRP.

Of course, LRP is set in a hilly area of New England while the Audi test track is on broadly fairly flat farm land near Inglostadt.
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Old 2 Sep 2014, 13:25 (Ref:3449713)   #49
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Brace yourself:

Parabolica.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/115653


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Old 2 Sep 2014, 13:48 (Ref:3449716)   #50
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I understand it. But I absolutely hate it.
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Late modifications of Le Mans track Fab Motorsport Art & Photography 13 25 Mar 2005 19:33
Pics of Magny-Cours track modifications? Sodemo Formula One 24 29 Apr 2003 09:16
Spa track modifications --> Sodemo Formula One 22 5 Aug 2002 22:03


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