Alonso's radio call, Abu Dhabi

[Chicanery]

First of all, hallo, I'm a new user, an emigre from the childrens' playground that has become the B*C Motorsport Message boards, and someone looking for some in-depth, objective and typically impartial F1 chat on mainstream and niche subject matter.

Background summary: Formula 1 is an overriding interest and passion in my life, has certainly been so since the 1999 season. I love not just the racing and the politics, but the scenery, atmosphere, rivalry, science, aesthetics, striped chicanes, ribbons of tarmac, the sound of a screaming V8.
Or put simply, the detail of the sport.

Enough about me. I thought I might try the topic below as a starter...
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ALONSO'S RADIO CALL- ABU DHABI

Leafing through F1Fan**ics, I came across an interesting blog containing a transcript of some radio messages passed between Alonso and his engineer on the pitwall. Here is a particularly interesting communique from the transcript:

Lap 12

Webber pits.

AS: “Webber has stopped and Vettel is also losing ground on Hamilton.”
Fernando Alonso: “If you see that Felipe can overtake him in a lap call him in.”
AS: “We are thinking about it, concentrate on Button.”

What this appears to show is that, as part of the agreement that Felipe would support Alonso, whether pre-existing or as a result of developments in the season, Alonso has the authority to control the actions of his teammate from the cockpit. Granted, it may be simply the result of soupef-up team-orders applied in a championship deciding race, but even so it apparently applies a level of control on the part of Alonso, and deference on the part of Massa (if he was aware that Alonso might control his teammate's race from the cockpit, which I presume he was) that I had not previously thought likely. Am I alone in thinking this?

Chicanery

[Super Hans]

Welcome aboard

Like Schumacher before him, it certainly appears that Alonso is granted the authority to make (or give input into) strategic calls from the cockpit, which takes a certain presence of mind on his behalf. I wonder if the decision to pit when he did was also partly his own decision.

[Osella]

Thing is, he needed to drive just the one car to become WDC...

oh, and welcome too!

[Chicanery]

Super Hans, to adopt a phrase from your namesake, and regarding Alonso's apparent cockpit authority from the point of view of Massa, "This is bullsh*t"!

I don't want to seem anti-Alonso in general, but it does strike me as unsavoury that Alonso has been given this authority. I can hardly imagine the Red Bull guys suggesting strategy for their respective teammates- though I accept the instance is in part different, both being in the title hunt in Abu Dhabi. But this sort of thing is nonetheless not condusive to equal playing fields. It also lessens the achievment.

On the other hand, and as Super Hans said, it is mightly impressive that Alonso, like Schumacher, is able to devote sufficient attention to strategy whilst driving.

[jab]

Originally Posted by Chicanery

I don't want to seem anti-Alonso in general, but it does strike me as unsavoury that Alonso has been given this authority.

Well he has won the championship twice, and was Ferrari's only contender in this one. Why shouldn't he?

I think what should be under more scrutiny is the fact that Massa wasn't good enough to do what Alonso wanted him to do

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by jab

I think what should be under more scrutiny is the fact that Massa wasn't good enough to do what Alonso wanted him to do

Why ? Where is written that he has to do what Teflonso wants ? Did you read that or are you just wondering ? Do you know specifics to say that he wasn't good enough for that ?
One thing is for certain and we all know already, Massa is not as good as Teflonso, and we'll never be. Another completely different thing is that he must do what Teflonso wants.
And IF that's the case, why Teflonso (like TGF) is not good enough to have his championship without a helping team mate ? This is what he wanted in McLaren and didn't receive, and now he wants at Ferrari. This is the deserving champion then ?
I think what should be under scrutiny is why Double World Champion Fudendo Teflonso needs help from his team mate.

[Wims]

Originally Posted by Bononi

Why ? Where is written that he has to do what Teflonso wants ?...

Probably in Massa's contract :P

[gert]

Originally Posted by Bononi

I think what should be under scrutiny is why Double World Champion Fudendo Teflonso needs help from his team mate.

Do you seriously doubt that Button would have helped Hamilton if Lewis needed his help?

Did anyone actually HEAR that radio call? As in: is it real or are we just speculating about some made-up stuff?

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by jab

Well he has won the championship twice, and was Ferrari's only contender in this one. Why shouldn't he?

I think what should be under more scrutiny is the fact that Massa wasn't good enough to do what Alonso wanted him to do

Or the fact that Alonso wasn't good enough to do what he wanted to!

[garcon]

Originally Posted by Super Hans

I wonder if the decision to pit when he did was also partly his own decision.

That has occurred to me also, especially given he publicly defended the decision!

Difficult call to make, especially from the cockpit.

[Chicanery]

Osella, Hi and thanks for the welcome!

Yup, had Alonso concentrated more on his own driving, he may have gained from it. It would also have allowed the pit wall more thinking time to realise (oh hindsight is a wonderful thing) that mirroring Webber might leave you horribly exposed to Vettel.

[Wims]

F1 isnt supposed to be an equal playing field tho.

[Alan Raine]

I wonder what would have happened if Webber pitted at the same time as Petrov?

[p261brm]

Originally Posted by Wims

F1 isnt supposed to be an equal playing field tho.

[Bononi]

Well, Alonso is a genius in all extent of the word. He has showed this before. I wouldn't be surprised if this level of influence is written in the contract, right in the middle of Santander's demands...

Uhn... No, on second thoughts that would be unnecessary, just like the radio in Germany.

But the second part of the radio conversation is certainly most striking...
"We are thinking about it, concentrate on Button"

It leads to two arguments, and one of them that goes against Super Hans' thoughts...
1 - Ferrari (or at least his engineer) doesn't think he's good at "strategic input" and simply dismiss the idea with that answer... meaning "keep driving, that's your job".
2 - Ferrari doesn't think Massa was any help and simply dismiss the idea as BS.

I also do this sometimes with rookies.

[awrb]

At that point though it would have been stupid for Massa not to help out. It is a team game, and Massa would not have gained anything by not helping out. It's not so much Alonso needing help, but a certain situation where the taem as a unit can work together to get the title.

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by awrb

It is a team game, .......

How many more times do we have to hear this rubbish? There is a Drivers Championship. There is a Constructors Championship. There is no Team Championship.

[Dan Fielden]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

There is no Team Championship.

Are you for real????

What do you think constructors are? 'Course theres a team championship. RBR are the reigning champions.

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by Dan Fielden

Are you for real????

What do you think constructors are? 'Course theres a team championship. RBR are the reigning champions.

Of course I'm for real. And I agree that the constructor's championship is a championship for the whole team. My objection is to the people who keep on saying "It's a team sport" as an excuse for manipulating the Drivers Championship. If the Drivers Championship is going to be decided by the combined efforts of the two drivers in a team, then we don't need both a Drivers Championship and a Constructors Championship.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

How many more times do we have to hear this rubbish? There is a Drivers Championship. There is a Constructors Championship. There is no Team Championship.

Unfortunately there isn't a forum pedant Championship. Fortunately there isn't a good discussion championship here.

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

It's rather badly named then, isn't it?

Is it a really bad name, or is it just that some people don't take it in the right context?

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Unfortunately there isn't a forum pedant Championship. Fortunately there isn't a good discussion championship here.

I'll treat that comment as it deserves.

Originally Posted by Adam43

Is it a really bad name, or is it just that some people don't take it in the right context?

What, then, do you think is the right context?

[Chicanery]

Guys, to be clear, I don't think anyone would suggest that Massa shouldn't have been asked to help out in Abu Dhabi- final race, close championship, two red bull drivers vying etc.

Rather, the point I was making is that it was surprising that, in that race, team orders were coming from the pit wall AND the cockpit of the lead driver. To me that smacks not just of having a lead driver, but more, perhaps someone with more authority than a typical driver, more in the mould of Schumacher in his Ferrari days.

Personally, I thought that level of advantage within a team created an unlevel playing field between other drivers from rival teams. Sure, you could say that other drivers could set out to do what Schumacher and (arguably) Alonso did/do. Personally however, I wouldn't want that scenario repeated throughout the sport. Not only does it reduce the number of drivers with the chance of going for the championship, it also requires a decided lack of support for the second driver. Those like Massa and Fisi may not have performed well with Alonso, but it doesn't necessarily mean that they are operating at their full reach. Thoughts coming to mind include Massa's stunning '08 season, Irvine in 1999 post Silverstone.

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by Chicanery

Rather, the point I was making is that it was surprising that, in that race, team orders were coming from the pit wall AND the cockpit of the lead driver. To me that smacks not just of having a lead driver, but more, perhaps someone with more authority than a typical driver, more in the mould of Schumacher in his Ferrari days.

To me, it looks like a lead driver who is really really good at being a lead driver - and still not good enough, considering the result. I really don't see the problem. Massa's job at this stage of the season was to help Alonso, if Alonso has any input on what shape that help should take, why shouldn't he be allowed to say it?

[E.B]

Ultimately a lead driver is only ever going to be able to win a WDC with the best team of engineers, designers and strategists around him.

As we have seen repeatedly a top driver is limited by the factors above (plus a good development budget to put in place the updates to a car over a year.)

Ultimately a good team in the background is more important than a top driver 'leading' the show. We have seen many occassions when this has been proven both ways, where the best car wins with not the best driver at the wheel (ie as we saw with Webber leading the drivers championship for most of the year) and of course where the (alleged at the time) best driver has struggled with a less than best car package.(ie Shumacher /Ferrari in 2005)

Lets not forget it is the team (WCC) championship which earns the teams the dollars to go racing, and most teams would prioritise the WCC result. RBR staff for instance had all their bonuses paid on the WCC result, although Vettel received a seperate and additional WDC bonus from the team. RBR earnt nothing in $$$ terms for winning the WDC, although clearly it earnt them the media and TV coverage and brand exposure that keeps the sponsors happy (in the case of this year the team owner was the sponsor of course) and gives those in F1 sponsorship the justification to put their corporate profits on the line.

Who was the real winner in 2010? The nost important person at RBR?

Well, if you are honest then Adrian Newey and his technical team were. He / they gave the RBR drivers the best equipment and package to do the job, despite other areas of team management and both drivers doing their utmost at times to nullify the advantage he gave them.

Without his department RBR would have potentially been a nothing team regardless of the drivers input or demands.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by E.B

Ultimately a lead driver is only ever going to be able to win a WDC with the best team of engineers, designers and strategists around him.

Who was the real winner in 2010? The nost important person at RBR?

Well, if you are honest then Adrian Newey and his technical team were. He / they gave the RBR drivers the best equipment and package to do the job, despite other areas of team management and both drivers doing their utmost at times to nullify the advantage he gave them.

Without his department RBR would have potentially been a nothing team regardless of the drivers input or demands.

Valid points and subsequently reasons why the technical rules should be changed so the balance moves back toward the drivers input more than it currently does for the WDC.