The curse Of Button And Webber

marzF1rocks · 5 Apr 2006, 20:41 (Ref:1571719)

Does Webber have the same curse as Button

Whenever they seem to be doing well, something happens to take it away

johnw · 5 Apr 2006, 21:02 (Ref:1571738)

Oh..... I thought that this was going to be an identical quote "$#?-ing engines"

luke · 5 Apr 2006, 21:28 (Ref:1571758)

They also have another thing in common among their potential to win. Big hype and fan support form their countries.

KE30MAN · 5 Apr 2006, 21:57 (Ref:1571790)

It's funny isn't it. Two drivers who get argued about more than any others (JV accepted?

) and yet neither have really produced any real results to speak of even though Button has certainly done more than Mark.

That said, they are actually my two favourites.

I actually thought that this would be the year both stod atop the podium - front and centre. Let's hope Cosworth and Honda afford them the opportunity.

Trev Campbell · 5 Apr 2006, 23:41 (Ref:1571836)

Could these two become known as the modern day Chris Amon's ????? I would have said Alesi but he did finally break through for that win as did Trulli.

BootsOntheSide · 6 Apr 2006, 12:39 (Ref:1572230)

From what you read on here, I think Ke30 is unique in liking them both - every pro-Button thread seems to have some sort of (not always constructive) criticism of Webber, while posts in support of Button rarely fail to mention Jenson in a derogatory light.

Their hype and fan support may not be higher than any other driver - it's jsut that this is an English-language forum and they come from English-speaking countries (as does JV, in a sense). They also both represent the bulk of the hope of countries with a great interest and heritage in the sport.

Mark was impressive in Melbourne, and a podium wasn't out of the question when he broke down. Likewise, if Jenson's engine had ran smoothly throughout the race, 3rd or maybe 2nd was on the cards. I'm not sure either are particularly unlucky however, it's just that the Honda struggles immediately after pitstops and they don't seem very good at getting him out onto clear track, and Webber has the odd 'off day'. Both also seem to qualify higher than the car can be expected to be, and Webber in particular has made more slow starts than his team-mates at both Jaguar and Williams.

DeoValente · 6 Apr 2006, 12:45 (Ref:1572234)

Boots, i think Jense's problems in Melbourne was with the tyres, as he stated in some intervieuws. When they where cold he got overtaken by Lonso and others like he was standing still.

I agree with the rest of the post.

luke · 6 Apr 2006, 12:47 (Ref:1572236)

Who's Lonso?

LampCord · 6 Apr 2006, 14:06 (Ref:1572289)

I think they both suffer from the same problem:

Mediocre Cars!

I mean, which of their teamates are racking up podium finishes and wins?

(sound of crickets chirping)

Exactly.

Put Webber and Button in a Ferrari / Renault / McLaren and see how they do. Those seem to be the only cars capable of winning barring a fluke.

I know Button qualifies well, but the car never seems to hold up for a full race. If the engine doesn't blow up, it develops handling problems. Ditto for Webber.

BootsOntheSide · 6 Apr 2006, 14:22 (Ref:1572299)

Good point Lamp - Button has only been outperformed by his team-mate once in his career, and Webber matched Heidfeld last year and outperformed everyone else. Only thing is, neither of them have worked with a truly top-drawer driver yet - they could suffer the way Fisichella and to an extent Rubens did when they joined top teams and were destroyed by team-mates.

Michael Edick · 6 Apr 2006, 14:36 (Ref:1572317)

good gawd, how many gazillion dollars does Honda have to spend to have a "good car" for Jenson to win???

pole2pole · 6 Apr 2006, 15:40 (Ref:1572362)

I strongly believe that the reason why these guys have so many negative instants is because they haven't got the right people around them. In order to be successful your package has to be very strong in all areas from the guys in the factory to the test team and onto the decision makers on the pit wall. Take a look at button at albert park and there tyre problems. How long is that going to take to get sorted out. Why was that not discovered in pre season testing? Alonso and the guys behind him have prepared a fantastic package. 28 points front three races speaks volumes for there package.

**Bononi** · 6 Apr 2006, 16:17 (Ref:1572393)

Are they cursed ?

Then, apart from Alonso, they are all cursed.

DeoValente · 6 Apr 2006, 18:55 (Ref:1572502)

Quote:

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

Good point Lamp - Button has only been outperformed by his team-mate once in his career, and Webber matched Heidfeld last year and outperformed everyone else. .

Jense only once outperformed? By Ralf or by Fisi?

I think either Jense or Webba will get a win this year. Putting money on Webba myself.

beau1 · 6 Apr 2006, 20:24 (Ref:1572567)

Quite simply, they not good enough at the moment. Both i think are overrated, for a start button does not know how to do a rolling start after the safety car period properly. It's simple things like this which i think makes a winning driver.

BootsOntheSide · 6 Apr 2006, 20:51 (Ref:1572584)

I hope you're not seriously saying that, if Jenson had held Alonso behind him after the Safety Car, he would have won the race, even without the engine failure? Above all it was poor tyre performance on restarts which stopped him at least remaining in contention for 2nd.

beau1 · 6 Apr 2006, 21:19 (Ref:1572598)

Quote:

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

I hope you're not seriously saying that, if Jenson had held Alonso behind him after the Safety Car, he would have won the race, even without the engine failure? Above all it was poor tyre performance on restarts which stopped him at least remaining in contention for 2nd.

no, not at all i am just saying that he still does sometime race like a relatively unexpirienced driver. If it was the poor tyre performance which caused a problem then he should have worked around it and not slid going around the last corner which is why alonso was so close behind him. He must of known that alonso was right behind him coming down the straight if so then why did'nt he defend for the place.
no, i don't think that button could have won the race without his engine failure, he was down to 5th or 6th by then. I am just saying that these small mistakes or inexpirience are still creeping in to his driving which CAN be costing him winning races.

hgmonaro · 7 Apr 2006, 01:17 (Ref:1572725)

Quote:

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

Both also seem to qualify higher than the car can be expected to be

agreed.

Quote:

..and Webber in particular has made more slow starts than his team-mates at both Jaguar and Williams.

Definetly Jag, but not Williams.

Can't remember what happened in the 1st race (but don't thin it stuck out as a poor start), but he out dragged Nico at Malaysia and was right up a Mclarens clacker at Melb. More importantly, relative to the cars around (except Alonso!) them, the Williams are doing ok of the line.

IF (F1 backwards, etc, etc) Montoya had of started from the rear, Webber might have had a bit of room to go down the inside at turn 1 and pick up a spot or 2

Scott Moyse · 7 Apr 2006, 01:55 (Ref:1572743)

Ok, i agree that Honda most probably have a problem with generating enough heat quick enough after pitstops and more seriously after safety car periods, but as Alonso said 'i think i worked harder at getting heat into my tyres than Jenson did', now i fully agree with alonso, he was throwing that renault around to the point that he was pretty close to the limit, whereby he would have lost the back end of the car and embarrased himself severly, nevertheless it was clear to see that he had the confidence to do it. Now Jenson on the other hand looked like he was tickling his tyres as opposed to rubbing them, big mistake! and i could see that was going to be the case on the last lap of the 1st safety car period, which it turned out to be.
Jense drove more k's in pre-season testing than any other driver and should therefore have had the confidence in the car to do the same thing!!! that way when he went into the last corner for the restart i doubt very much that the car would have slide wide like it did and in turn gave alonso a run at him.

On another note, his defense of his position later on in the race at the other restarts showed a man who had given up, and resided himself to being overtaken. Now don't get me wrong i am a fan of jense and know that he will win sooner rather than later, and have confidence in the teams abilities to sort their handling out, they improved ten fold by the end of last season. He could have made it a hell of a lot harder for kimi to pass him, he didn't even try and defend the inside line.
If jense wants to be world champion he really is going to have to sort out that mindset of his, and be a lot more boligerant about covering his postion, he needs to apply himself to defending in the same way as he does overtaking, which he has a knack for. He should take a leaf out of Alonso's book from imola last year while he was fending off MS, and another young british driver named Joey Foster, who many witnessed as some of the best defensive driving ever seen at the Formula ford festival a few years ago, and went on to be the first driver in the 30 year history to win all 3 heats, Frank williams' son was there talent spottin that day adn god knows why he didn't do anything to help Joey.
I wish Jenson all the best in his quest and until another british hopeful makes it through the ranks i will be fully supporting Jense. hopefully he will be replaced in the next 3-4 years by the much more talented Joey.

Yours Hoping

Scott.

Nado · 7 Apr 2006, 03:02 (Ref:1572761)

Quote:

Originally Posted by hgmonaro

agreed.

Definetly Jag, but not Williams.

If you believe Coulthard then Jag had a really bad start system. I remember reading an article on him somewhere, and he was talking about how he was able to help improve their starts by telling RBR/Jag what he knew about the McLaren's start system.

Williams' starts last year were plain awful, they're reasonable this year though. But just like everyone, there's no stopping the Renaults.

Notso Swift · 7 Apr 2006, 05:20 (Ref:1572800)

Webber has always been slow to start against his competiors, and team mate. This year he is being compared to a rookie, so probably not a fair comparison.
Webber has also dominated his team mates until last, year, and a lot of that was due to bad luck (Monaco, pit stops, lots more mechanical failures) When ever Webber was out qualified he was running heavy.. if they had the same load (+/- 1 lap) Webber was always in front.
Still 75 Gp's and 1 podium.

JB, same - when was he last challanged? Probably Renault. He was dropped for Alonso anyway, but was faster than Trulli. Going to BAR From Renault was not a positive career move, even then (And JV had a really bad patch, so is a bad comparison). I have to believe he has had some shocking advise, so not much to show... 170 GPs is a lot.

Could one of these guys be the new Andrea de Cesaris?

johnh875 · 7 Apr 2006, 09:56 (Ref:1572944)

You could race a million GPs and not have a win if you are not in the top 2/3/4 teams...

Hopefully both drivers will be on the top step by the end of the year, it will mean we have had a good interesting championship.

DeoValente · 7 Apr 2006, 10:00 (Ref:1572947)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Notso Swift

Could one of these guys be the new Andrea de Cesaris?

Thats a bit harsh.

N I Tram · 7 Apr 2006, 12:00 (Ref:1573034)

The new Chris Amon is a better comparison - his lack of wins was down to bad luck and poor choice of team, rather than any lack of talent or ragged tendencies.

Fair point about Webber's 2006 starts being more impressive. Melbourne was an allround great drive from him, one of his best ever, and it's a shame he didn't get a reward for it.

JohnH is basically right - aside from the odd wet-weather fluke, most races have been won by one of the fastest 2 or 3 teams that weekend, and modern F1 is so heavily invested and prepared that the same 4 or 5 teams are usually up the front, even in a relatively close season like 2004 (behind the Ferraris). However, in time the top drivers usually gravitate towards the top teams.

Scott Moyse · 7 Apr 2006, 12:27 (Ref:1573059)

dissapointed no one had anything to say about my post!!!????

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