Red Bull under investigation for illegal engine maps

[chillibowl]

im not trying to be argumentative just trying to throw a similar pickle in your brain which, thanks to you, i have in mine. so forgive me if i am putting words in your mouth or taking things too far off topic.

i have struggled a bit with the 'all motor is contrived' statement. obviously its true, cars are manufactured by people, the rules are made by people, and as technology changes so does everything else but it just doesnt sit right with me because there has to be more to it than that.

Originally Posted by Greem

That's a little disingenuous - the stewards made it clear in their quote above that they were not fully satisfied, but agreed that there was no breach of the way the reg is currently worded.

There is no black and white here, only grey, and IMO Horner's quote there is a little bit of smoke-and-mirrors. Grey smoke, at that

if the statement 'all motorsports is contrived' is true im not sure how Horner is being disingenuous. If he had said 'its F1, its contrived anyways, get used to it and quit acting so surprised because anyone could have done it and its what we have always done' would that have made it ok?

here is a case where you seem to me to be saying that a line has been crossed but is it actually any different to a line which has been crossed time and time again in the history of motorsports. the rule, perhaps poorly written by, was there for everyone. anyone could have exploited it so exploiting it should be considered acceptable because this is the way its always been.

now i have a problem with that because to me it crosses a line of what i consider fair and it is outside of what i consider 'natural' racing and proper competition. its more of a feeling really and clearly something i have struggled with to express into words.

its probably something different for everyone. for me its comes in the form of DRS and extra tires for going slow in qualifying (and other benefits for the follower at the expense of the leader). for nicanary in another thread its about understanding why someone will lose their lead because someone behind them makes a mistake and a SC comes out. for others it can be simply about radio communications in different languages or even just plain old favoritism to certain teams and drivers. in your case its teams pushing the rules to their breaking point.

the point is as sports fans we all have a belief in what constitutes fair play and proper competition. if there is a 'natural' form of racing for me its just that...our belief in what is fair and that must form the foundation on which everything else is built. just because motorsports is contrived doesnt mean that the results and rules have to be contrived too.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

if the statement 'all motorsports is contrived' is true im not sure how Horner is being disingenuous.

Wow, way to go merging three separate threads into one

IMO Horner was being disingenuous because his quote (either verbatim or edited by Autosport, which would be a bit naughty!) makes it sound like the stewards agreed 100% with RBR and Renault's statements, which they clearly did not.

I suppose you could say that Horner is contriving to make the situation sound like it was completely in RBR's favour

Good point on the differing opinions of the term "natural racing". Like noses, we all have one, and they're all *slightly* different.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Greem

Wow, way to go merging three separate threads into one

haha. thanks. like i said i got this pickle in my brain and i cant help to now fit everything i read into trying to explain it away.

Originally Posted by Greem

IMO Horner was being disingenuous because his quote (either verbatim or edited by Autosport, which would be a bit naughty!) makes it sound like the stewards agreed 100% with RBR and Renault's statements, which they clearly did not.

agreed it was. im actually pretty amazed he managed to say it with a straight face but i guess thats the job.

maybe this has to do with my lack of understanding how the rules work, but i dont get why the matter gets referred to the stewards when the FIA Formula 1 technical delegate is of the opinion that there is a breach in the rules.

surely he has more expertise to make this determination then the stewards so shouldn't he be the one with the final say in technical matters?

[MGDavid]

[QUOTE=chillibowl;........ i dont get why the matter gets referred to the stewards when the FIA Formula 1 technical delegate is of the opinion that there is a breach in the rules.

surely he has more expertise to make this determination then the stewards so shouldn't he be the one with the final say in technical matters?[/QUOTE]

if that were the case Ferrari might not have won so much....

[Sodemo]

I think the most ridiculous incident where a team was "cheating" but got away with it, was Ferrari in 1999 when their bargeboards exceeded the maximum dimensions, they were let off because it yielded "no performance advantage". In reality, the FIA just didn't want to see the championship decided in a court room, which I can understand that would have sucked, however bending the rules to suit sucks too.

[JohnSSC]

This is getting to be even more fun than I first imagined. I am going to have to hire someone to explain the explanation, let alone the new "rule clarification."

http://http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com...142406670.html

[Clive Brown]

Link doesn't work.... too many http://s?

[JohnSSC]

Sorry, let's try this again..

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/red-bull-forced-alter-e
ngine-142406670.htm

or this: http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/r...133805507.html

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

Sorry, let's try this again..

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/red-bull-forced-alter-e
ngine-142406670.htm

or this: http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/r...133805507.html

the 2nd link is hardly news, seeing that the article is dated 2 days ago - I've seen a link to it before somewhere.

[ROGER JORDAN]

Originally Posted by Greem

Their mucking about must stop:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/101476

There's a simple way to solve this for 2013 and on: make exhausts exit a minimum distance behind the rear axle, so all aero parts are in front of it. I hope the cheque's in the post

Praise the Lord, someone with a simple, effective and cheap solution, it`s obvious to me that if the exhaust gasses exit into clear air with no possible effect on any part of the vehicle (and no trick diverter valves) it would answer the problem of blown difusers for good.

Sadly cheap and simple are words unknown to F1

[Marbot]

No doubt 2013 will see exhausts routed in a different way (maybe exit just a little in front of the rear crash structure), and no doubt some clever bugger will interpret it in a different way.

The other thing about the 2012/13 cars is that not a lot will be much use in 2014. But there will be a standard issue ECU. 2013 is going to be a busy and difficult year for some. Particularly if you don't have much in the way of resources to build and develop one car whilst building and developing another completely different car.

[schead]

The answer to totally stop exhaust blown diffusers is simple. Force all air coming from the diffuser to the inside of the drivers helmet. That would stop Newey from channeling exhaust fumes at it .