Punctures and the Safety Car

[nicanary]

I've used the search facility, but can't find this covered, and I'm quite surprised.

When the track at the German GP had carbonfibre on it, my heart sank. The stuff is so sharp that punctures are almost inevitable, and it was a miracle that only Lewis Hamilton was affected. If the mess can't be easily cleared, the usual result is a safety-car period. It may well add to the drama for some viewers, but what about the poor driver who's worked his socks off for most of the race, to find that 3 laps from the end his lead is nullified by the bunching behind the safety-car? Because I don't have a "favourite", I personally don't like the idea of others getting a chance because of an accident.

I was on another forum for old codgers and we joked about the need to carry a spare wheel and jack, but it got me thinking about an alternative. Charlie Whiting must be immediately aware when debris is on the track from the various monitors - why dosn't he issue an immediate warning to all drivers, say by a flashing light on the steering-wheel, and then effect after an appropriate time of, say, 10 seconds,an automatic reduction to pit-limiter speed? That way, the cars will circulate at a much lower speed, allowing marshals to clear the track, and the gaps built up by faster drivers will be maintained. No bunching, no unfair second-chance. I fully realise that you can't just slow cars as they're touching 200mph, or committed to a fast corner, that's why the 10 second delay, and the advance warning.

Now you all know that I'm not a huge fan of today's F1, and don't really know all the ins and outs, so I'm probably being naive here. But can you see any flaw? Much fairer IMO.

[stripedcat]

I think it was mistake not to have a safety car. Highlighted by the fact that Hamilton had a puncture. I don't understand why it didn't happen. As from the past, we have seen previous incidents where the safety car has been deployed when carbonfibre has been left on the track.

[bludvl_x19]

The idea/premise behind a Safety Car is to bunch the field up, so that marshals can work in a big gap, and clear the track safely. Unfortunatly, sometimes it ruins a race for someone, but that is an acceptable byproduct IMHO, as a squishy body sometimes seen trackside.

[wolfhound]

If one goes to Holland they have a system similar to what nicanary has suggested called code 60. They use a special flag and all drivers have to slow to 60km/h.

It has been discussed elsewhere on this forum but I am unable to find it.

It could be a good idea for F1.

[nicanary]

Originally Posted by bludvl_x19

The idea/premise behind a Safety Car is to bunch the field up, so that marshals can work in a big gap, and clear the track safely. Unfortunatly, sometimes it ruins a race for someone, but that is an acceptable byproduct IMHO, as a squishy body sometimes seen trackside.

I did realise that the marshals would have to work around moving cars, and that was what concerned me most. I think the pitlane limited varies from circuit to circuit (?) but it's usually about 40/50mph. I'd have thought that that sort of speed would allow for marshals who were reasonably light on their feet.

I'd much rather see the field "unbunched" so to speak, if at all possible. But I get your drift. But it's the only drawback I can see.

[VIVA GT]

A good idea in principle (I'm sure that something similar has been discussed in the past). One drawback that I can see is that I'm sure that this speed wouldn't be fast enough to keep sufficient heat in the tyres...

[chillibowl]

as VIVA GT just pointed out, from a safety point of view tire temperature has to be the primary concern.

from an entertainment point of view, and considering all the rules have been aimed at bunching the field up more not less, i think the powers that be and apparently most of the fans actually like it when everyone gets bunched up. its more exciting that way.

[Greem]

After the start at Silverstone incident marshals cleared debris from the track before the pack came round again to start lap 2. Perhaps the relatively short lap time at Hockenheim contributed to them not getting over the wall to clear up; perhaps (just as likely) the debris was not significantly visible on the circuit cameras or to those with radios who could see the track.

[W.A Trichlorostyrene]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

If one goes to Holland they have a system similar to what nicanary has suggested called code 60. They use a special flag and all drivers have to slow to 60km/h.

It has been discussed elsewhere on this forum but I am unable to find it.

It could be a good idea for F1.

Reminds me also of the PACER system used at Indy in the 70s.

[nicanary]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

as VIVA GT just pointed out, from a safety point of view tire temperature has to be the primary concern.

from an entertainment point of view, and considering all the rules have been aimed at bunching the field up more not less, i think the powers that be and apparently most of the fans actually like it when everyone gets bunched up. its more exciting that way.

Tyre temperatures - I just knew I'd forgotten something. That's the prob. all right.

As for the "rules" aimed at providing excitement, well that's why I'm no longer a big F1 fan. Artificial results. We've been here before.

[Richyy]

Originally Posted by Greem

After the start at Silverstone incident marshals cleared debris from the track before the pack came round again to start lap 2. Perhaps the relatively short lap time at Hockenheim contributed to them not getting over the wall to clear up; perhaps (just as likely) the debris was not significantly visible on the circuit cameras or to those with radios who could see the track.

Not sure where you were marshalling Greem, but at Village/ The Loop Di Resta and Grosjean had a coming together and debris was cleared immediately after the pack had gone through, but Silverstone is the 2nd longest track but also and i may be wrong here there didn't seem as many marshals in Germany as in GB

[Greem]

Originally Posted by Richyy

Not sure where you were marshalling Greem, but at Village/ The Loop Di Resta and Grosjean had a coming together and debris was cleared immediately after the pack had gone through, but Silverstone is the 2nd longest track but also and i may be wrong here there didn't seem as many marshals in Germany as in GB

That was my point

I was at Silverstone (flaggy at Chapel) but my feet were in a battlefield trench somewhere in a different era!

[tristancliffe]

Perhaps use a safety car as normal, and then on the final lap (the lap where the safety car would come in), the drivers have a dashboard reading that tells them the gap to the car in front (via GPS and the flag lights telemetry system) which they have to try to match before racing resumes.

e.g. if the safety car is called, and driver B is 10.7 seconds behind driver A at that moment then, on the final safety car lap (when they're bunched up and he's just 0.7 seconds behind) the dash would read -10.0. As he drops back, it becomes -8.0, -1.0 and he has to try to keep it at 0.0 (a tolerance would be needed, say -0 +2). Thus the gap is back to how it was.

Driver C has to slow even more to get his gap, and so on.

Maybe there is a limit - we can't have drivers stationary because they were about to be lapped, and it wouldn't be a good idea to let tyre temps drop too much. But it's a start of an idea. Perhaps the gaps can be halved, so that the driver with a big lead still has quite a big lead, but not as much..........

[Purist]

As much as people may not like the Safety Car, piling on these extra layers of rules and complexity just seems to exponentially explode the artificiality of what is going on. You'll win some and lose some with the Safety Car; deal with it.

Also, once you start engaging the "fairness" argument, what's to stop *****ing about drivers saying it's unfair where on track they're having to restart compared to where they were when the caution flew? I mean, this onion has way too many layers that you can peel away. It's just more mess than it's worth, or that can be practically dealt with.

[TrapezeArtist]

I think the idea of using the pitlane speed limiter in lieu of the safety car is a brilliant idea. I HATE the artificiality of the safety car and the way it distorts results.

Problem 1. It doesn't create a big gap for the marshals to work in. Overcome this by putting a cone on the track just in front of the incident, obliging cars to pass to one side. Which side could be indicated by colour. If necessary it could be changed part way through the clearing up process.

Problem 2. Tyres would lose temperature. Tough. It's the same for everyone.

I commend the motion to the house.

[pauln]

I think using the pitlane speed limiter is an appalling idea.

For incidents that involve marshals being trackside (and a safety car won't be called for anything that doesn't) the point is to bunch the cars up so that there's a reasonable gap for us to work in. By the middle of a Grand Prix the cars are spaced out around the circuit such that you'd have one or a group coming towards you at up to 50mph every 10-12 seconds. I'd not feel safe working in those circumstances.

[nicanary]

As usual, some say yay, some say nay. I really like the sound of "tristancliffe"s idea for re-establishing the appropriate gap. And the cone idea for protecting marshals has a lot of merit.

I'm rather disappointed by the numbers of you who don't think there's anything wrong with the system. If I'd led the race from the start, and established a 30 sec advantage only to find the field right behind me because PM had had another shunt, I'd be none too pleased. Especially if it was 2 laps to go, and my tyres wpuld have been OK with the 30 sec lead, but now I had no chance cos the guy behind had had a late change.

I really would like to see the FIA think this one through.

[rantanamo]

Originally Posted by nicanary

As usual, some say yay, some say nay. I really like the sound of "tristancliffe"s idea for re-establishing the appropriate gap. And the cone idea for protecting marshals has a lot of merit.

I'm rather disappointed by the numbers of you who don't think there's anything wrong with the system. If I'd led the race from the start, and established a 30 sec advantage only to find the field right behind me because PM had had another shunt, I'd be none too pleased. Especially if it was 2 laps to go, and my tyres wpuld have been OK with the 30 sec lead, but now I had no chance cos the guy behind had had a late change.

I really would like to see the FIA think this one through.

If its part of the rules its part of the rules. I'm more disappointed by those who seem to think a 30 second lead is more important than injuring a worker. The pit speed limiter is not slow like it looks on television. 50 or 60 mph is the speed driven on a highway and that = fatality 100% of the time. Not to mention it is plenty fast to kick up debris.

I'm more surprised by the concern about tire temperature. Are F1 drivers that reliant on tire warmers? If you really want the drivers to roll around at the same speed why not just park them at their spot on the track (red flag) or make them roll around at the lowest possible speed that will keep the engine running.

[nicanary]

Originally Posted by pauln

I think using the pitlane speed limiter is an appalling idea.

For incidents that involve marshals being trackside (and a safety car won't be called for anything that doesn't) the point is to bunch the cars up so that there's a reasonable gap for us to work in. By the middle of a Grand Prix the cars are spaced out around the circuit such that you'd have one or a group coming towards you at up to 50mph every 10-12 seconds. I'd not feel safe working in those circumstances.

Sorry. I'm not trying to make things more dangerous for the marshals. Fine body of men/women and all that.

But what did they do before the safety-car was introduced? Presumably the cars just weaved through the mess whilst the marshals worked away. I don't know what equipment you're given these days, but they make really huge brooms for sweeping dance floors, I'm talking 8 ft wide, and surely that would get rid of the wreckage in one fell swoop. (Apologies if this sounds facetious - just a suggestion).

OK - let's try a second button on the steering-wheel just for accident-clearing-up at, say 15mph. Blimey, Usain Bolt does 100m in 9 secs, I'm 62 and I reckon I could cross a racetrack with a broom in 5 0r 6 secs. Where's the danger? Mind you, 15 mph exacerbates the tyre-temp problem.

(I'm sort of thinking out loud as I type - take it all with a pinch of salt. But the present arrangements are less than satisfactory).

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by nicanary

But what did they do before the safety-car was introduced? Presumably the cars just weaved through the mess whilst the marshals worked away.

Simple: the race was red flagged if debris couldn't be cleared safely & it was considered a hazard.

I don't know what equipment you're given these days, but they make really huge brooms for sweeping dance floors, I'm talking 8 ft wide, and surely that would get rid of the wreckage in one fell swoop. (Apologies if this sounds facetious - just a suggestion).

OK - let's try a second button on the steering-wheel just for accident-clearing-up at, say 15mph. Blimey, Usain Bolt does 100m in 9 secs, I'm 62 and I reckon I could cross a racetrack with a broom in 5 0r 6 secs. Where's the danger? Mind you, 15 mph exacerbates the tyre-temp problem.

I, too, can be a hero sitting at a keyboard; however, in real life I tend to be more conscious of my & my team's safety. Live race tracks are somewhat less safe an environment than dance floors!

The Safety Car is a compromise, brought about in no small part by pressure to keep races running to time to satisfy TV companies who have paid obscene amounts of money to televise Grands Prix. As has already been said, its purpose is to bunch the cars together & control their speed so that marshals, recovery crews, etc., can work safely trackside.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Purist

As much as people may not like the Safety Car, piling on these extra layers of rules and complexity just seems to exponentially explode the artificiality of what is going on. You'll win some and lose some with the Safety Car; deal with it.

Also, once you start engaging the "fairness" argument, what's to stop *****ing about drivers saying it's unfair where on track they're having to restart compared to where they were when the caution flew? I mean, this onion has way too many layers that you can peel away. It's just more mess than it's worth, or that can be practically dealt with.

Sense at last!

Line up behind the bloody car and thank your lucky stars you weren't a random participant in someone else's accident !

Or got a random puncture Lewis style!

The SC is a good system as it is!

(Sort out the cockpit covers. LOL)

[pauln]

Originally Posted by nicanary

Sorry. I'm not trying to make things more dangerous for the marshals. Fine body of men/women and all that.

Thank you.

Originally Posted by nicanary

Usain Bolt does 100m in 9 secs, I'm 62 and I reckon I could cross a racetrack with a broom in 5 0r 6 secs. Where's the danger?

On my first day trackside the chap I was paired up with asked me to count the seconds from the point I could first see a car coming out of Stowe until it passed me at Club. At the end of the session he then had me run from the barrier to the track and see how long it took. The answer was a longer time - for cars slower than F1.

Originally Posted by nicanary

(I'm sort of thinking out loud as I type - take it all with a pinch of salt. But the present arrangements are less than satisfactory).

Plenty of salt added. Reasonable debate - thesis/critique - it's the way to resolve things

[nicanary]

Originally Posted by pauln

Thank you.



On my first day trackside the chap I was paired up with asked me to count the seconds from the point I could first see a car coming out of Stowe until it passed me at Club. At the end of the session he then had me run from the barrier to the track and see how long it took. The answer was a longer time - for cars slower than F1.




Plenty of salt added. Reasonable debate - thesis/critique - it's the way to resolve things

Thanks. I can get a bit out of hand sometimes.

[werner]

Originally Posted by nicanary

As usual, some say yay, some say nay. I really like the sound of "tristancliffe"s idea for re-establishing the appropriate gap. And the cone idea for protecting marshals has a lot of merit.

I'm rather disappointed by the numbers of you who don't think there's anything wrong with the system. If I'd led the race from the start, and established a 30 sec advantage only to find the field right behind me because PM had had another shunt, I'd be none too pleased. Especially if it was 2 laps to go, and my tyres wpuld have been OK with the 30 sec lead, but now I had no chance cos the guy behind had had a late change.

I really would like to see the FIA think this one through.

If there are chances of a safetycar, I'd advise you to save your tyres instead of pushing for a large gap.

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by werner

If there are chances of a safetycar, I'd advise you to save your tyres instead of pushing for a large gap.

But how do you know in advance there are "chances of a safety car"?