Punctures and the Safety Car

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by nicanary

As usual, some say yay, some say nay. I really like the sound of "tristancliffe"s idea for re-establishing the appropriate gap. And the cone idea for protecting marshals has a lot of merit.

I'm rather disappointed by the numbers of you who don't think there's anything wrong with the system. If I'd led the race from the start, and established a 30 sec advantage only to find the field right behind me because PM had had another shunt, I'd be none too pleased. Especially if it was 2 laps to go, and my tyres wpuld have been OK with the 30 sec lead, but now I had no chance cos the guy behind had had a late change.

I really would like to see the FIA think this one through.

Sense at last! The safety car is an abomination, and flies in the face of any logical view of a race being a grand prix being a fair sporting competition.

I like the idea of a two speed pitlane limiter with a special slow setting for passing an incident. There are other ideas such as a red flag and a staggered re-start using the gaps at the end of the previous lap. There are many possibilities which the open-minded could discuss to find a better solution than what we currently have.

[nicanary]

Somehow I doubt the FIA are reading this thread. Still, it's nice to let off steam.

[Marbot]

Not sure if it's a good idea to have F1 cars still effectively racing when there are people trying to do a difficult enough job without having to worry about when the next F1 car will be coming along.


I once put forward that it could be possible to rev limit all of the cars at exactly the same time, so that they would all keep to a distance that related to where they were when the safety car came out. However, one of the things that F1 cars tend to do when the safety car comes out is head straight for the pits, or not, as the case may be. And the other thing, of course, is that spreading out the field makes it a darn sight more difficult for track marshall's etc, to do their jobs.

There is the option to get all of the drivers the right distance apart after the safety car goes back in. But how much farting about is that going to need? Particularly when you have cars that have pitted and cars that haven't.

[numbersix]

As someone who has had two formula cars crash either side of him during the oxymoron that is a Safety Car, may I say I'd feel safer in the middle of a minefield.

The cars immediately behind the SC are weaving all over the track and can be unsighted as they approach the incident. The cars playing catch-up are still at race speed, and due to yellow flags being waved all around the circuit, nobody has any idea where the incident is.

Re: The cone idea. Who places the cone? , and can it have a small explosive charge inside that goes off on impact. I'd be happy with that.

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by numbersix

Re: The cone idea. Who places the cone? ,

Hmmm! Yes, I didn't think of that.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

Hmmm! Yes, I didn't think of that.

In all seriousness: the SC came about eventually because drivers take (took) no notice of flags. This still happens (also in series with FIVs such as the various NASCAR sanctioned series). Where do we end - FCY or red flag for everything in all series? I hope not.

[numbersix]

Yellow flag infringement + two witnesses = Immediate exclusion from meeting. No appeal.

' Bet that would change things pretty damn quick.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by numbersix

Yellow flag infringement + two witnesses = Immediate exclusion from meeting. No appeal.

' Bet that would change things pretty damn quick.

The trouble with showing yellow flags and allowing the race to continue, is the race is still on and the drivers are still racing and pushing every rule they can find to the limit. They may not be overtaking one another but they are still trying to make time on each other with all the attendent risks.
The safety car stops the race, bunches the field and allows the emergency crew safe access on a clear track. The practice of weaving to warm tyres should be banned under the safety car, run another lap in race order after the safety car pulls off to warm the tyres, or just deal with it, it's the same for everyone!

The only alternative, is Greem's red flag the race and restart.

[Burnsie]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

If one goes to Holland they have a system similar to what nicanary has suggested called code 60. They use a special flag and all drivers have to slow to 60km/h.

Yes indeed, purple flags shown at all marshals posts. I haven't been at a race meeting where it's been used, but from what I've heard it seems to be a very effective way of neutralising the race.

[numbersix]

Originally Posted by wnut

The trouble with showing yellow flags and allowing the race to continue, is the race is still on and the drivers are still racing and pushing every rule they can find to the limit.

They are not racing (should not!) within the yellow flag zones.

Originally Posted by wnut

They may not be overtaking one another but they are still trying to make time on each other with all the attendent risks.

The rules are very clear, they must slow down as well as not overtake.

Originally Posted by wnut

The safety car stops the race,

No.

Originally Posted by wnut

bunches the field

No. That's the objective, but cars are allowed to play catch up in various ways so you don't know who's where, and they are catching up at speed.

Originally Posted by wnut

and allows the emergency crew safe access on a clear track.

Uhh!!!! No way. Have you ever been out there? I'll admit that is the ideal but the fact is that it rarely happens.

Originally Posted by wnut

The practice of weaving to warm tyres should be banned under the safety car, run another lap in race order after the safety car pulls off to warm the tyres, or just deal with it, it's the same for everyone!

I'd like to see something like that. Whether it's technically feasible I'll let the experts decide.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by numbersix

I'd like to see something like that. Whether it's technically feasible I'll let the experts decide.

Drivers try to warm their tyres up in order not to have an accident when the race is started again. So not allowing them to do so, may be counter-productive to what the safety car was called out for in the first place, i.e. to avoid more accidents.

[tristancliffe]

Originally Posted by numbersix

They are not racing (should not!) within the yellow flag zones.
The rules are very clear, they must slow down as well as not overtake.

How much should the drivers slow down by? Please quantify it, and in such a way that the drivers can actually do that.

Because in real life, you slow down the minimum amount you think you can get away with, and at the same time you hope that the cars in front and behind slow down a little more.

What you don't want to happen is that you slow down more than everyone else, particularly if you've been closing on the car ahead slowly or pulling away from the guy behind.

The drivers, in the car, with their visors down, don't give two monkeys about the safety of the car in the wall or the orange workers besides the track. They care about maximising their race result. They might BE a marshall 49 weeks of the year, but if they are a competitive driver they still won't care about marshals whilst driving (not, obviously, to the extreme of WANTING to hurt them or not minding if they hit them).

As the rules are "slow down", 0.00001mph and a fractional lift of the throttle is technically obeying. Clearly that isn't enough. Is 1mph? 2mph? One gear lower than they wouldn't normally be in (but of course you'd be hitting the rev limiter in that lower gear to minimise the slowing down)?

If you can't quantify it (and I suspect you can't) then please come up with a better yellow flag rule.

Also (a late addition) - when there are yellow flags and the drivers are compelled to slow down against all their instincts and trying not to slow down any more than anyone else, and they see a car miles away in a safe place with the driver safely out of the way and no marshals for miles and miles, then they will stop slowing down and start going fast again - is that wrong? How is that actually any different from what 99% of people do in 30mph speed limit zones - they see the national speed limit sigh 500m ahead, and start to gradually accelerate, even though they are still in the road equivalent of a yellow flag zone. Is it okay do to this on the road when not competing, but not when on a track when every 100th of a second counts?

[Greem]

Originally Posted by tristancliffe

Also (a late addition) - when there are yellow flags and the drivers are compelled to slow down against all their instincts and trying not to slow down any more than anyone else, and they see a car miles away in a safe place with the driver safely out of the way and no marshals for miles and miles, then they will stop slowing down and start going fast again - is that wrong? How is that actually any different from what 99% of people do in 30mph speed limit zones - they see the national speed limit sigh 500m ahead, and start to gradually accelerate, even though they are still in the road equivalent of a yellow flag zone. Is it okay do to this on the road when not competing, but not when on a track when every 100th of a second counts?

Just because a risk can't be seen doesn't mean it isn't there. The pedestrian who trips and falls into the road unexpectedly is the same as the orange suited person still climbing the wall to get away. The flag signals are *almost always* (nobody is perfect) indicating something is a risk. Ignoring them because you can't see the risk... well, that's a related but separate discussion.

[numbersix]

The flag rule is fine. Drivers who are racing are on the very edge of adhesion and control. That is defined by their lap times. They must slow down so that they are in control and can take evading action. The object is not the slowing down. The object is to have the car totally under control and prepared to take evading action without risk of losing that control. It's usually achieved by backing off.

And yes, it involves losing/gaining distance, but so does a Safety Car which slows everything down by several laps. Tough.

And as for "not giving a monkey's", I suggest that being sent home a couple of times would soon refocus a driver's priorities, and if it doesn't, perhaps he should consider demonstrating his I.Q. in a different sport.

[BootsOntheSide]

As the Hockenheim incident was early in the race, the officials probably should have played it safe and beployed the safety car. I can't imagine that a system to mark out the positions of debris on the track is plausible. However, in dry conditions, common sense should be enough to avoid most other incidents. Immediate exclusion for infringing yellow flag limits ('delta' times make this quite easy to judge) should allow the number of safety car periods to be reduced.

My main issue with the safety car is that it is over-used. I can't understand the need to use it any more frequently than the red flag was used before it was introduced - unless drivers have become less capable of observing yellow flags or cars have started to give off debris more easily than 20 years ago. I appreciate that the safety car makes races less likely to overrun, which is helpful for TV schedules and allows for more races in a single meeting, but it is inherently unfair and should be kept to a minimum.

[tristancliffe]

Originally Posted by Greem

Just because a risk can't be seen doesn't mean it isn't there. The pedestrian who trips and falls into the road unexpectedly is the same as the orange suited person still climbing the wall to get away. The flag signals are *almost always* (nobody is perfect) indicating something is a risk. Ignoring them because you can't see the risk... well, that's a related but separate discussion.

Drivers tend to ignore certain risks and choose to take other risks. I don't drive down the road thinking everyone might fall over, and I don't race thinking like that either. I've seen a lot of pointless yellow flags both as a driver and a spectator.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by tristancliffe

Drivers tend to ignore certain risks and choose to take other risks. I don't drive down the road thinking everyone might fall over, and I don't race thinking like that either. I've seen a lot of pointless yellow flags both as a driver and a spectator.

That is exactly why the safety car is a good idea.

[numbersix]

Safety cars were rare beasties years ago. Now they are common practice every weekend, everywhere.

And it's a choice that drivers have made which I do not understand.

A safety car invention messes up several laps, makes leading cars lose hard-earned advantage by closing up, and I can't believe for one minute that a racer who has paid a fair chunk of money on entry fees is happy to spend it going round in convoy.

Most yellow flag situations are between to two flag points only. Outside of those points the drivers can race their whatsits off. That involves a fraction of one lap.

And yet, drivers choose - by 'not giving a monkeys' as my learned colleague so aptly phrased it, the safety car over the flags.

It's a lose-lose situation and I really don't understand why drivers have chosen that option. They can unchange it overnight by changing this rabid desire to be on the podium at any cost - including the safety of those who risk their own welfare to be the first to their blazing wrecks when all sensible people will be running away.