[WEC] Toyota LMP1 Discussion

[chernaudi]

I'm not 100% sold on Toyota sticking around exactly being good for the sport as the sole factory team, not unless they market the series (something that Audi excelled in relatively speaking, and something the ACO have failed at).

That's what screwed up the WEC when Audi Sport left was their activation and marketing went with them. For the health of the series, I hope that Toyota or better yet the ACO gets off its duff and promotes the series.

And I'm still a bit skeptical of how long Toyota will stick it out if they're the sole manufacturer team for the foreseeable future. I can't see them pull an Audi and stick it out for several years without the prospect of new factory opposition.

Of course, I've been watching LM '05 and that was the end of an era, because, factory supported or not, that was the last true race where private teams had a shot to win, and all the LMP1 teams that year were privateers.

Sadly, LMP1 diesels and hybrids are basically too complicated for private teams to run, even with factory support.

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

I'm not 100% sold on Toyota sticking around exactly being good for the sport as the sole factory team, not unless they market the series (something that Audi excelled in relatively speaking, and something the ACO have failed at).

That's what screwed up the WEC when Audi Sport left was their activation and marketing went with them. For the health of the series, I hope that Toyota or better yet the ACO gets off its duff and promotes the series.

And I'm still a bit skeptical of how long Toyota will stick it out if they're the sole manufacturer team for the foreseeable future. I can't see them pull an Audi and stick it out for several years without the prospect of new factory opposition.

Of course, I've been watching LM '05 and that was the end of an era, because, factory supported or not, that was the last true race where private teams had a shot to win, and all the LMP1 teams that year were privateers.

Sadly, LMP1 diesels and hybrids are basically too complicated for private teams to run, even with factory support.

I have the feeling that Toyota is happy with the new direction of the ACO in the way to GTP/GT1, added the project of the new Toyota hypercar goes in this direction too, beyond that the rules are not going to demand an homologated hypercar for the street.
I see McLaren and Aston Martin interested as well and many of the other GTE manufacturers were part of the meetings to define these new rules with the ACO and the FIA.
I have a positive view of this question.

[Japanese Samurai]

Autosport magazine reports 2018 WEC BOP.
The lap time of TS050 in 2017 Bahrain will be the referenced time of coming super season.
So Toyota can't develop a TS050 chassis basically. It's possible to remodel parts where is not homologated.

About Fernando Alonso.
Murata revealed that Alonso had drove about one-race distance.
And he marked the lap time as same as Nakajima's best lap in the race.
But he didn't do Qualifying simulation.

[chernaudi]

So am I reading right that Toyota can't do any real development work? I guess it's a good thing that they spent the last couple of races working on their 2018 car (which TMG themselves said would be largely as it was raced at Shanghai and Bahrain).

[Akrapovic]

They can do development work, there's just not much point in making the car faster. But they can still work on reliability, serviceability, make it easier to work on for regular duties, make it easier to drive.

[canaglia]

Guess main goal for toyota will be to improve the overall reliability

[CTD]

Serviceability will be highly prioritised as well!
The only Toyota which where able to finish this year lost a lot of time in the pits, so being able to change parts more rapidly must be a topic for them.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by CTD

Serviceability will be highly prioritised as well!
The only Toyota which where able to finish this year lost a lot of time in the pits, so being able to change parts more rapidly must be a topic for them.

Very true. IIRC, the #8 changed the battery as a precaution(?) and that added something like twice the amount of time? I don't know what else could be done to speed that up unless the redesign a lot of areas around it's installation.

[chernaudi]

Wouldn't that possibly require a new tub depending on what they feel would be necessary to make those changes?

Not being an expert on the car's guts, but with packaging as tight as it probably already is, I'd bet that there's probably not a ton they can do aside from maybe make this or that bit smaller or maybe move something an inch or two that way.

The whole "passenger" side of the tub is probably filled with the battery box and other electronics that actually make the car work as a system.

Not wanting to start a fight or even a spirited debate, but I think that TMG designed the car as it is for a reason, and everything it where it is for a reason. And there's probably never going to be a 100% perfect race car where you're going to have a 100% optimal trade off between packaging and performance.

You have to design the vehicle around the parameters you set out and hope you get you sums right and hope for a bit of luck, too.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Wouldn't that possibly require a new tub depending on what they feel would be necessary to make those changes?

Not being an expert on the car's guts, but with packaging as tight as it probably already is, I'd bet that there's probably not a ton they can do aside from maybe make this or that bit smaller or maybe move something an inch or two that way.

The whole "passenger" side of the tub is probably filled with the battery box and other electronics that actually make the car work as a system.

Not wanting to start a fight or even a spirited debate, but I think that TMG designed the car as it is for a reason, and everything it where it is for a reason. And there's probably never going to be a 100% perfect race car where you're going to have a 100% optimal trade off between packaging and performance.

You have to design the vehicle around the parameters you set out and hope you get you sums right and hope for a bit of luck, too.

I agree if the race car isn't build under time and budget restrictions.
As with the Toyota we know they haven't been able to design and build as uncompromised as Audi and Porsche. I would therefore be surprised if some parts haven't been designed and build with the though, "this is the best we can do with what we have now". These are the parts that they can now pickup and see how to optimise small things like position of screws, wires and hoses. All the little things that will sum up greatly when changing a part at Le Mans.
Remember this is what made Audi and Joest great with the R8!

[chernaudi]

If they could make for instance the battery pack for sure smaller and lighter, servicing that item would be significantly easier. Same with the front ERS system.

Only problem is if they use the same exact tub, we do have to think that unless they can adapt newer parts to go where the old ones did, they might need to redesign the tub, especially to optimize fully such installations. TMG did that with their 2013 car to get rid of the FWD ERS system they didn't use. Not to mention that heavy miniaturization has its own trade offs.

But we have seen more of a no holds barred/money is no object approach by Toyota the past couple of years compared to say 2013.

That all being said, 2017 is being used as the basis for BOP/EOT between Toyota and the privateer teams. From that standpoint, there's little incentive for boosting performance. The TS050 is already the fastest car round the track at Le Mans as of last year anyways.

But anything to boost durability or ease of use would probably no doubt the appreciated.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by CTD

I agree if the race car isn't build under time and budget restrictions.
As with the Toyota we know they haven't been able to design and build as uncompromised as Audi and Porsche. I would therefore be surprised if some parts haven't been designed and build with the though, "this is the best we can do with what we have now". These are the parts that they can now pickup and see how to optimise small things like position of screws, wires and hoses. All the little things that will sum up greatly when changing a part at Le Mans.
Remember this is what made Audi and Joest great with the R8!

Their 'problem' if we want to call it that, is they implemented the hybrid system moreso than either Audi or Porsche. Just the fact that they have a dual kers style hybrid layout makes me think it's a little more complicated than what the other two did. So it probably doesn't help that changing time with all the interconnected parts of it making it more complex, and to fix. But they seemingly could have changed the front mgu in about the same time as Porsche did. I don't know if the battery was ruined too or what, but that lost them Le Mans last year looking back at it.

[hondafan37]

Pechito Lopez return to the Formula E in Marrakesh. He replaces Neel Jani at DRAGON.

http://www.fiaformulae.com/en/news/2...ani-at-dragon/

[chernaudi]

Is the consensus that this might effect his participation with Toyota full time next year, or is this just because Lopez is a TMG factory driver and is news relating to that fact?

I thought that the ACO and FIA agreed to avoid as many clashes as possible to make such things a possibility (drivers full time in both series as well as IMSA)?

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Is the consensus that this might effect his participation with Toyota full time next year, or is this just because Lopez is a TMG factory driver and is news relating to that fact?

I thought that the ACO and FIA agreed to avoid as many clashes as possible to make such things a possibility (drivers full time in both series as well as IMSA)?

It does not affect his participation in the Toyota TS050. Neither Formula E date coincides with the WEC this year.

[roderick]

They will develop new tub for sure.
they will have to make a change in fuel tank and battery compartment for next season. Also, the I believe there are no longer using High and low down force kits which means they need to work on their aero quite a bit

[TF110]

Originally Posted by roderick

They will develop new tub for sure.
they will have to make a change in fuel tank and battery compartment for next season. Also, the I believe there are no longer using High and low down force kits which means they need to work on their aero quite a bit

I haven't read that one in the rules. Afaik, two kits are still allowed. They'll run the high df car from Bahrain supposedly. The LM kit is pretty capable too I think since it is the record setter

[kvenom]

Force India have apparently paid TMG to upgrade their wind tunnel for more efficiency

[chernaudi]

If they have to change fuel tank capacity I don't think that will require a new tub. Audi and Peugeot did that with the R10 (90 liters-81 liters-85 liters) and 908 (81 liters-85 liters) between the LM24/LMS and ALMS and it didn't require a tub change, though they had to re-arrange the fuel tank bag and baffles in the fuel tank to get the needed capacity.

Audi Sport and others had to do the same with the R8 and other LMP900 era cars in '04 (90 liters to 80 liters).

I don't think that Toyota would design a new tub just for a fuel tank size change.

Only change for the battery compartment I can see it to ease servicing. And I don't think that would necessarily need a new tub depending on what they plan to do.

We do have to remember that LMP1 performance balancing will be based on what Toyota and Kolles did in 2017. Hence, especially from a performance standpoint, TMG have little incentive to develop the TS050. Only stuff that would make the car more user friendly would probably be looked at.

[TF110]

Almost time to reveal the TGR Super Sport concept. Here it is under the sheet


https://twitter.com/TOYOTA_GR/status/951436863121666048

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by TF110

Almost time to reveal the TGR Super Sport concept. Here it is under the sheet


https://twitter.com/TOYOTA_GR/status/951436863121666048

Fantastic, maybe the future GTproto in 2020

[TF110]

Here's the first images of it, better looking than I thought it would be, honestly-

https://twitter.com/Toyota_Hybrid/st...15662044205057







late edit- here's the press release from Toyota's site https://newsroom.toyota.co.jp/en/cor.../20622853.html, and here is another better quality image

[kvenom]

Build it like Mercedes and Aston/Red Bull are doing with their racing technologies, then we'll talk.

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by TF110

Here's the first images of it, better looking than I thought it would be, honestly-

https://twitter.com/Toyota_Hybrid/st...15662044205057







late edit- here's the press release from Toyota's site https://newsroom.toyota.co.jp/en/cor.../20622853.html, and here is another better quality image

I like the car. More here:
http://www.dailysportscar.com/2018/0...brid-tech.html

[bentley speed 8]

Honestly I was expecting worse, but the car turns out to look great.