[Official] Austrian Grand Prix

[S griffin]

It's gone too far now. They should not have so much tarmac run offs. Not saying we have to get rid of it completely, just not have it in places where track limit arguments come up. They need put grass or gravel in places. It's become too much of a problem now. This could have been avoided. F1 is very different from ball sports when it comes to white lines, so we shouldn't compare the two. Drivers will get it wrong at times, but they will learn more if they realise going off at a corner could end their race if they are not careful. There's a few circuits that could do with changes in that regard

[Sodemo]

Maybe the profound idea of re-introduction of grass and gravel? The track isnt even that high speed, so the need for vast tarmac run-offs is debatably less than at other circuits. Naturally if this layout was transplanted onto a street circuit it would all be lined with concrete walls and given the green safety stamp of approval from the FIA.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

The track isnt even that high speed, so the need for vast tarmac run-offs is debatably less than at other circuits.

To be fair not too many cicruits see a 150 mph pole speed average do they?

[thetool]

Originally Posted by peebee2

To be fair not too many cicruits see a 150 mph pole speed average do they?

It seems many people don't realise it's the fourth-fastest track routinely used by F1.

[Sodemo]

OK, but the point stands that they don't do top speeds near 230 like say Monza or Baku. Most of the corners are low speed so they could have grass and gravel.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Most of the corners are low speed so they could have grass and gravel.

Apart from 3, and arguably the entry to 4, I don't think any of the corners are slow corners!

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Apart from 3, and arguably the entry to 4, I don't think any of the corners are slow corners!

T1 - Low / Med
T2 - Low
T3 - Low
T4 - Med
T5 - Med / High
T6 - High
T7 - Med

By my reckoning there is only one truly high speed corner at RBR. In previous years it was argued that the reasoning for having tarmac run off was so that in high speed accidents the cars could scrub off speed whilst sliding. So by that same rationale, only the penultimate corner really needs tarmac.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Appears that the problem was that not all transgressions were referred to the stewards. I guess we’ll hear more about this one in the next few days but apparently 1200 odd transgressions through the race (!!!).

Who is it that refers the transgressions to the stewards? Are there spotters on the track and or people watching the broadcast feed?

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Who is it that refers the transgressions to the stewards? Are there spotters on the track and or people watching the broadcast feed?

Race control or even trackside marshals (although I expect they don’t refer direct, more likely via race control). With the much greater number of people in race control these days, seems odd that not everything was referred, although the large number of transgressions could be at fault there.

[Plantagenet]

I have no sympathy either - this is as a current UK racer 'adapting' to the much more stringent UK rules that have been recently rolled out.
The current approach is that there is lots of run-off/shallow curbs at these circuits, there is a potential advantage in breaching track limits and they get 'caught' if spotted doing it and only then suffer a penalty - it has to move to more of a model where if you do it, you risk damaging the car - so gravel, higher curbs etc. Fully appreciate this is not going to happen overnight or without cost, but the current approach will only end up with more and more steward incidents rather than fundamentally trying to change the drivers' approach.

On a separate note, Hamilton seemed particularly outspoken of the car this weekend including a radio intervention by TW telling him essentially to stop whining and to get on with it. Don't think I have seen that dynamic emerge before and suggests a few cracks emerging at Mercedes.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by S griffin

It's gone too far now. They should not have so much tarmac run offs. Not saying we have to get rid of it completely, just not have it in places where track limit arguments come up. They need put grass or gravel in places. It's become too much of a problem now. This could have been avoided. F1 is very different from ball sports when it comes to white lines, so we shouldn't compare the two. Drivers will get it wrong at times, but they will learn more if they realise going off at a corner could end their race if they are not careful. There's a few circuits that could do with changes in that regard

I agree, why is there so much tarmac run off to the left of the rumble strip and why is the rumble strip so wide? This photo is a good example of a driver using the wide rumble strip and extra run off and exceeding the track limits.



I watched the IndyCar race at Mid-Ohio yesterday and they don't have any of this extra tarmac run off, or wide rumble strips and there isn't an issue with track limits being exceeded. If the track limits are exceeded, then the cars goes onto the grass.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

T1 - Low / Med
T2 - Low
T3 - Low
T4 - Med
T5 - Med / High
T6 - High
T7 - Med

By my reckoning there is only one truly high speed corner at RBR. In previous years it was argued that the reasoning for having tarmac run off was so that in high speed accidents the cars could scrub off speed whilst sliding. So by that same rationale, only the penultimate corner really needs tarmac.

Lol. T1 isn’t a slow corner.

T2 is totally and utterly flat out in any car.

T3 is the one truly slow corner on the circuit.

I suspect you're confusing T3 with T2 though.

Refer to post #54 - it's good info.

[crmalcolm]

If it helps for the comparison of whether the Red Bull Ring has quick corners compared to other tracks:

Circuit	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12	13	14	15	16	17	18	19	20	21	22	23	24	25	26	27
Bahrain International Circuit	80	170	230	135	250	215	240	85	250	80	170	265	155	130	180
Jeddah Street Circuit	90	80	185	140	180	245	250	250	220	235	260	275	140	270	250	165	195	255	290	300	300	210	240	275	290	305	100
Albert Park Circuit	175	220	100	165	250	160	200	260	130	200	255	260	160	225	90	200
Baku City Circuit	130	105	100	95	105	100	130	100	95	95	95	115	290	310	100	120	260	300	310	330
Circuit de Monaco	125	260	195	145	90	65	90	90	270	90	75	190	235	250	125	125	190	65	125
Circuit de Barcelona-Catalunya	165	215	255	160	120	260	175	220	265	85	200	135	150	95	100	235
Circuit Gilles Villeneuve	160	85	145	190	270	115	185	135	230	80	155	315	150	150
Red Bull Ring	145	320	75	120	245	205	235	270	255	205
Silverstone Circuit	290	290	120	100	245	180	125	280	290	310	300	275	230	265	250	110	130	225
Hungaroring	105	130	105	240	155	115	160	185	165	255	245	125	110	145
Circuit de Spa-Francorchamps	80	310	300	305	175	175	215	115	195	285	295	185	200	165	260	315	320	80	70
Autodromo Nazionale Monza	85	75	315	125	140	215	195	195	240	265	215
Yas Marina Circuit	175	260	275	290	150	95	75	75	110	270	105	125	135	115	265	275	105	125	135	220	145
Circuit Paul Ricard	185	205	195	140	95	180	265	135	115	305	200	140	270	160	85
Intercity Istanbul Park Circuit	175	225	200	100	140	200	130	260	150	205	300	85	95	100
Shanghai International Circuit	250	100	120	170	285	70	280	220	120	175	105	115	225	65	135	165

[chillibowl]

Damn fine table!

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I agree, why is there so much tarmac run off to the left of the rumble strip and why is the rumble strip so wide? This photo is a good example of a driver using the wide rumble strip and extra run off and exceeding the track limits.



I watched the IndyCar race at Mid-Ohio yesterday and they don't have any of this extra tarmac run off, or wide rumble strips and there isn't an issue with track limits being exceeded. If the track limits are exceeded, then the cars goes onto the grass.

Because the FIA went on a mad bender many years ago insisting that permanent circuits install tarmac run off. Now it seems that they want tracks to revert to gravel in some cases.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/fia-wanted-red-bull-ring-to-install-gravel-traps-to-avoid-track-limits-problem/10490897/

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Because the FIA went on a mad bender many years ago insisting that permanent circuits install tarmac run off. Now it seems that they want tracks to revert to gravel in some cases.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f...blem/10490897/

Gravel traps are a long way from perfect, and also cause enormous damage when a car goes in even at slow speed.

Tarmac is actually better, if you can come up with a smart way to make the drivers stay on the bit they're supposed to. They need one of the new ideas suggested - like a narrow strip of grass etc., something that makes going a bit wide slower and not quicker.

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Gravel traps are a long way from perfect, and also cause enormous damage when a car goes in even st slow speed.

Tarmac is actually better, if you can come up with a smart way to make the drivers stay on the bit they're supposed to. They need one of the new ideas suggested - like a narrow strip of grass etc., something that makes going a bit wide slower and not quicker.

Yea, racing drivers will always push to the edge and beyond in terms of available track, there needs to be a physical barrier, a detriment to going outside the white lines. I'd be happy with 3 metres of grass minimum, then tarmac if need be.

This is actually (I think) what some of the faster corners at Silverstone had before they scrapped it and replaced with tarmac. My guess is that someone in the F1 paddock with a huge ego complained about it and forced Silverstone to change it because it was "too difficult".

[Greem]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Race control or even trackside marshals (although I expect they don’t refer direct, more likely via race control). With the much greater number of people in race control these days, seems odd that not everything was referred, although the large number of transgressions could be at fault there.

Where there are no assistive technologies (sensors+cameras), it's always boots on the ground and eyeballs on the line. Observe, note, report.

It's not a fun task, I can tell you that much. Thankfully next weekend I'm at Maggotts, where if a driver sniffs the white line they're going to have a very bad day indeed.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Yea, racing drivers will always push to the edge and beyond in terms of available track, there needs to be a physical barrier, a detriment to going outside the white lines. I'd be happy with 3 metres of grass minimum, then tarmac if need be.

This is actually (I think) what some of the faster corners at Silverstone had before they scrapped it and replaced with tarmac. My guess is that someone in the F1 paddock with a huge ego complained about it and forced Silverstone to change it because it was "too difficult".

3 metres seems a bit wide to me. I'd suspect they'd work to avoid 1 metre, and it would slow them if they went over it. Although the first massive shunt because of it there'd probably be outcry!

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by Plantagenet

I have no sympathy either - this is as a current UK racer 'adapting' to the much more stringent UK rules that have been recently rolled out.
The current approach is that there is lots of run-off/shallow curbs at these circuits, there is a potential advantage in breaching track limits and they get 'caught' if spotted doing it and only then suffer a penalty - it has to move to more of a model where if you do it, you risk damaging the car - so gravel, higher curbs etc. Fully appreciate this is not going to happen overnight or without cost, but the current approach will only end up with more and more steward incidents rather than fundamentally trying to change the drivers' approach.

I'm broadly with you on this, though I'm not too keen on introducing the risk of damage, especially on a circuit also used by club racers and motorbikes. I think a characteristic that causes a loss of time is the way to go. The question is, how to achieve that?

First off, I would go for a simple rumble kerb that need only be 200mm wide. Something to prevent the edge of the tarmac crumbling.

Gravel right to the back edge of the kerb is liable to result in gravel frequently finding its way back onto the track so there needs to be a bit of a gap. 1 metre of grass may be the answer. If the grass is wet, you could be sure drivers would stay off it. In dry conditions the penalty for going on the grass may or may not be sufficient.

Preventing the cutting of apexes may be a different issue. Grass or gravel may not be much of a disincentive there. Something reasonably solid like a tyre bundle (but more high-tech and expensive - this is Formula 1!) that is firmly tethered back to a point several metres off the track should do the trick. The only problem would be that once someone has moved the bundle (and suffered the consequent damage) the other drivers would be free to cut the corner until a safety car or VSC gives the opportunity to put it back.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

Damn fine table!

I second that. I use the table functionality here on occasion. But the color coding was a nice touch!

Richard

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

Preventing the cutting of apexes may be a different issue. Grass or gravel may not be much of a disincentive there. Something reasonably solid like a tyre bundle (but more high-tech and expensive - this is Formula 1!) that is firmly tethered back to a point several metres off the track should do the trick. The only problem would be that once someone has moved the bundle (and suffered the consequent damage) the other drivers would be free to cut the corner until a safety car or VSC gives the opportunity to put it back.

Sounds like Castle Combe where the FF1600 drivers take it in turns to be the one to remove the cones at the chicanes.

[Sodemo]

A track I used to race on years back in karting now has tarmac run off. I used to think Buckmore Park had some pretty fearsome corners but now most of them have tarmac run off on the outside. The penalty for getting it wrong was part of the thrill of threading the eye of the needle, I don’t think it’s “progress” at all.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

I second that. I use the table functionality here on occasion. But the color coding was a nice touch!

Richard

A little bit of trial and error to get colours [sic] that display well with sufficient contrast on monitors. But hopefully it shows the amount of quick corners (Magenta and Red) versus slow corners (Blue and Teal) in a clear manner.

[GT6]

having been in France for the race i have just watched it on catch up, better than recent races but ruined by over zealous officials TBH