Well as the Season Comes to an end, Let's discuss next year

[Tim Wilkinson]

I wrote this nearly 3 years ago, when there was a discussion about the MSA imposing some more charges for something or another (probably the championship registration thing)

But now should be an ideal oppurtunity to start (or continue?) looking at ways to lower (or limit increases) in costs borne by clubs, circuits, marshalls, competitors.

My feeling is that motorsport in Britain is too bloated and over-structured, with numerous conflicts of interest between organisation levels that create difficulties, raise costs, and ultimately reduce participation. I appreciate that each level is doing the best for themselves, and occasionally has a common goal, but as a whole the industry has plenty of room for improvements in efficiency.

Very little, if anything has changed. Self-interest rules, with a few exceptions. The government and MSA take from the circuits and competitors, the circuits take from the clubs, the clubs take from the competitors. And the competitor has to pay for it all because lack of action to compete with all the new leisure pursuits means that outside of F1 and BTCC barely anyone gives a crap about motorsport.

The whole sport needs a Castle Combe / small oval attitude. Fewer meetings, bigger and better quality grids, and some promotion.

[Al Weyman]

Originally Posted by chezza

Timekeepers are one of the biggest expenses after the track hire. But if you don't have manual timekeepers who is going to input all the transponder numbers into the system and allocate them to the correct car especially for the "hire" transponders that are allocated on the day, who is going to set up and manage the equipment, who is going to add the drivers who enter at the last minute and make any necessary amendments, who is going to tell you that your transponder isn't working, who is going to pull off the lapcharts when you think you have overtaking under safety car, etc, etc, etc?!

But Chezza we are in this wonderful world of automation. My son god rest his soul raced little electric car things 15 years ago and that was fully automated as is I believe is Go-Karts. Surely TSL set up their own equipment dont they? They charge us enough for the transponders so surely they should be supplying some sort of service. As I said its not always gonna be spot on but if we all know that in advance and accept it along with the saving on entry it could generate then so what, its a sport a bit of fun at our level surely, its not life and death or F1.

[andy97]

Originally Posted by chezza

Timekeepers are one of the biggest expenses after the track hire. But if you don't have manual timekeepers who is going to input all the transponder numbers into the system and allocate them to the correct car especially for the "hire" transponders that are allocated on the day,

The people that do signing on? How hard can it be in a Computerised world.

Originally Posted by chezza

who is going to set up and manage the equipment,

The circuits could have fixed infrastructure which is paid for as part of the circuit hire service. Its not massively complicated stuuf is it?

Originally Posted by chezza

who is going to add the drivers who enter at the last minute and make any necessary amendments, who is going to tell you that your transponder isn't working, who is going to pull off the lapcharts when you think you have overtaking under safety car, etc, etc, etc?!

The club, see above, how hard can it be in the computerised world.

The wife of a friend of mine now helps out with the timing when he goes racing (sometimes he's racing, sometimes he's scrutineering). I'm not aware that she gets paid, she's a volunteer. Perhaps we need to encourage more volunteers.

[Podd37]

Originally Posted by andy97

Perhaps we need to encourage more volunteers.

I think this is very important too. Not sure about the UK but over here scruts were (perhaps still are) getting paid as far as I know. I'm not sure when this started but for us, the guys paying the bills, it's another expense. Clubs need to look at this whole idea of expenses, wages etc. Why do clubs need to make anything other than break even? And before I'm jumped on I have run a class of racing and organised races at my own expense. I'm not sure asking drivers to do stuff is a great idea as we are paying but asking driver's friends, family etc is a great idea as (as Andy points out) it involves them. However drivers would, I imagine, make good scruts, perhaps doing stuff in each others classes. Again this also runs back to my earlier point about running looser tech regs, making it easier for cars to cross classes/clubs. CSCC are a very good example of this, easy regs that encourage cars out and increasing numbers in both moderns and historic/classics.
Football Referees dont get paid and yet there are lots of them. Same with marshels without whom we'd all be sitting on a sunday looking at static cars. And be a bit (lot?) richer no doubt!! Club level motorsport needs to remember that it is just that. Fun on a sunday for a bunch of folk pretending to be racing drivers.

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by Podd37

......
What I think we as drivers seem to forget is that we are the customers, we have great power. ................

AT LAST.....and SO SO RIGHT

You ARE CUSTOMERS, not just competitors, as I have said so many times on here ITS BECAUSE OF YOU PAYING....that all the officials etc can play god for a day....and that organising clubs can EXIST PERIOD!

I should be careful actually.....because look what happened the last time I liked an idea of yours

[MartinSmith]

We've had the debate about Timekeepers before..and I do not agree that they are a big cost after the circuit hire, they are a factor but no more than Scruts expenses or indeed how much it costs to get a decent programme printed.

Andy, you say at driver sign on the club will input the Transponder numbers into the system, but what happens during the day?..and what happens if you have a dispute?...Timekeepers are liceneced officials of a meeting ....if you didnt have then, but had some 13 year old "volunteer" can you imagine the protests?

Most of you are oblivious (as you should be ) to how the system works, you may think that the transponder breaks the beam it doesn't, the car breaks the beam, the transponder tells the system who broke it and you DO STILL get errors and thats ONE (only one) of the reasons why you need timekeepers. And you may think "well what about the other systems that are used in F1 or BTCC etc why cant we use them, they can tell where the car is on the track at any time"...sorry you are trying to lower costs, that, would raise them!

Timekeeping 30 karts on a circuit the size of a large garden (And before you all come back to me...I know there are larger circuits!) is one thing, Timekeeping 30 cars on a circuit the size of Dony or Silverstone etc is another.

Dont look at Timekeeper costs as a way to save you money because c'mon people, get real...we need Timekeepers, we need Scrutineers (who i think actually get paid by the MSA?) we dont need membership fees.

[johngee]

Scrutineers expenses are regulated by the MSA but not paid by them. They are relatively modest and not really significant and we need good, skilled scrutineers to ensure safety and that the correct eligibility is enforced. They also have to provide much of their own equipment.
The only 'economy' that clubs can make is to use 'local' scutineers in order to minimise their travelling expenses but it depends who is available - they are 'volunteers' (timewise) in the same way as the other senior officials.
We've had the discussion about timekeepes before and I'd just remind everyone that the transport, maintenance and depreciation of their equipment is included in their charges.

[midgetman]

Claire, up until you started trying to support the status quo, I thought we'd pulled you over to the dark side...

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if a kart centre can time 30 or 40 karts on a track the size of a garden, IE going over the line every 30 - 40 seconds, then 20 cars on a 90 second lap should be a piece of p. Yes you need someone to watch the screens, but you've got loads of time to react if something goes wrong..

But we've been here before, so let's not go down at route, we are talking costs which most certainly are affecting grids. Even Combe got it wrong this year. Due to unforeseen circumstances, they offered Open sports & saloon races to fill the meetings, but they didn't offer a discount to people who had already done one race. If you've spent over 250 quid on a main entry, you may be tempted by a second race for 90 but not for 250 again, and guess what? The races were disasters with only a tiny handful of entries.

For too long competitors have been seen as cash cows, and these days we just can't afford it, there's loads of other places to spend your money and time. I've been saying this for years.

Personally, my season will be The 360 - loads of money to enter, but brilliant value - hopefully a Barry S-S race or two at Spa - value again - and maybe a CSCC event but not more than one if I have to cough up £95 registration fee. What will I get for £95? Oh yes, access to a private part of this very web site! Sod that...I'm not *that* fussed about racing with them. I may do a hill climb or two, but am dubious because it's a lot of money, lot of hanging around for just a couple of minutes behind the wheel. Value again.

[midgetman]

Claire, just re-read your post and if that's how the timing works, then it's archaic. In karting, and I assumed it was MSA karting as well as commercial given it's the same transponders, there's no beam. The transponder sends a pulse which is read by the magnetic loops in the Tarmac, the timing is triggered when the transponder goes over the line which is why it's regulated that transponders are fitted to the seat backs to ensure consistency.

It's simple and it WORKS!

In speed events the cars break a beam, which is why they have the cheese cutter on the front.

If car racing uses beams and transponders, no wonder it's clonky and expensive.

[johngee]

You really have to address that logic to the MSA, Max. Clubs have to provide timekeeping (and scrutineering) to MSA regulations in order to comply with the permit requirements. No licenced timekeeping and timekeepers - no permit. We (organising clubs) don't have to agree with the rules - just comply with them as best and as economcally as we can.

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Claire, just re-read your post and if that's how the timing works, then it's archaic. In karting, and I assumed it was MSA karting as well as commercial given it's the same transponders, there's no beam. The transponder sends a pulse which is read by the magnetic loops in the Tarmac, the timing is triggered when the transponder goes over the line which is why it's regulated that transponders are fitted to the seat backs to ensure consistency.

It's simple and it WORKS!

In speed events the cars break a beam, which is why they have the cheese cutter on the front.

If car racing uses beams and transponders, no wonder it's clonky and expensive.

Max.

1) As you know very well I am not FOR the status quo at all, its why this thread has turned into a sounding board for all thats wrong with Motorsport because yours truly got up and started ruffling her feathers about certain aspects of the current system...its WRONG, i know it is, so do you, so do a lot of people, but making the timekeepers redundant is NOT going to solve the "Status Quo".... in fact it wont help at all because the cost of the timekeeper is miniscule compared to the other costs of putting a race meeting on and if you think that an organising club will pass that saving onto you...you obviously think they are all like The 360 MRC!!! (ha ha ...see what I did there?)

2) You are talking about Karts and with the greatest respect to them and you, they are a completely different beast to cars, As you said, its the size of a garden compared to a race track,...the reason why the beam is broken and not done your way is because you are talking a matter of mm in respect of a transponder behind one seat or another with a Kart, a car is different and so they use a beam because its fairer...simple as that. the beam gets broken and the transponder tells the machine who broke it. Also, when you say we would have plenty of time to if something goes wrong....think again about that statement, you are half way through the 360 and your transponder fails, it no longer works....who is going to tell you? who is now going to manually time you?...who is going to count your laps?...not me...Im running round playing event director, not the clerks either, they are running the meeting, the race secretary is doing all the relevant paperwork and hasn't got time, so, you finish forth we think ....but you dont because, you never knew your transponder wasn't working and so...the system had you as not finishing...and before you say "we could get volunteers to do it" I cant wait for the appeal to the stewards from someone who reckons they should have been entitled to first in class but we cant reference a licenced official of the meeting (timekeeper) because we didnt need em so we ask a 13 year old boy who half the time was watching his mobile for updates from Facebook and the other half playing with his DS

Yes there are better systems out there, I have seen them and they show where the car is on the track, what speed its doing etc etc...but as I said, we are all talking about REDUCING costs, that system costs a fortune We also thought for 360 we would use INDIVIDUAL transponders that are on the driver but they cost more so we went for the coloured flannel...yes its crued...but it adds to the fun and works ... and regardless what system you use as my very well qualified race director has informed you, you HAVE to have timekeepers, its a regulation in your blue book, so you would still be charged for their time.

3) Glad to hear that you are in the 360

4) see ya at Coventry

[midgetman]

Large glass of wine each and continue at Coventry JG and I have just agreed to differ, and I do agree with everything you've written and appreciate it's a brave stand.

And I genuinely didn't know about the beam stuff. Best get my big comedy cantilever arm on the front of the car for close finishes!

[Lancsbreaker]

Originally Posted by ClaireSmith

regardless what system you use as my very well qualified race director has informed you, you HAVE to have timekeepers, its a regulation in your blue book, so you would still be charged for their time.

Not particularly advocating getting rid of timekeepers.....but if its an MSA requirement how does the "Plum Pudding" meet at Mallory get away with it? 'Cos the regs state "Timekeepers may not be present"........

Only asking, like........(as I believe the vernacular is)

[johngee]

Originally Posted by midgetman

And I genuinely didn't know about the beam stuff. Best get my big comedy cantilever arm on the front of the car for close finishes!

Many a joke spoken in jest. I was involved in an appeal which went to the MSA, and revolved around car A clearly crossing the finishing line ahead of car B ....... but car B had his transponder mounted further forward.

[johngee]

Originally Posted by Lancsbreaker

Not particularly advocating getting rid of timekeepers.....but if its an MSA requirement how does the "Plum Pudding" meet at Mallory get away with it? 'Cos the regs state "Timekeepers may not be present"........

I suspect the organising club apply for (and get) dispensation due to the rather unusual and lighthearted nature of the meeting (i.e. on Boxing Day) when licenced timekeepers wouldn't be available. ....... but you would have to ask the MSA that question!

[johngee]

Originally Posted by johngee

I suspect the organising club apply for (and get) dispensation due to the rather unusual and lighthearted nature of the meeting (i.e. on Boxing Day) when licenced timekeepers wouldn't be available. ....... but you would have to ask the MSA that question!

I've just had it confirmed by the Clerk of the Course for the Plum Pudding meeting that my supposition is correct.

[Al Weyman]

Look all these points about the transponders, if it was made clear thats the way the timing is i.e. electronic and automated accept it or dont enter, this thing about timing beams is a joke. I got pipped to the pst at Rockingham and I am certain I beat the other car but he had his transponder at the front of his car I had mine on the bulkhead it could have been at least four foot forward, my bad so tough we get over it! We are club racers FFS its meant to be fun like the Plum Pudding so lets make it fun. Bunch the serious racers in their own meetings (this happens now anyhow) let them pay extra and have all the bells and whistles where as the rest of us can get costs cut to the bone and time electronically, what the hell does it matter if its a nano second out now and then.

[andy97]

Midgetman, to be strictly accurate you just need to be a member of the CSCC to get access to the clubs forum & not to have registered a car, so it doesn't cost £95. Anyway, just to play devils advocate a minute I guess that most clubs have a registration fee at the start of the year in order to provide some form of "float" to help with the clubs cash flow. I'm not defending that, its just that I suspect thats the way it is.

Running a club is a bit of a knife edge activity - most circuits require paying, I think, 6 weeks in advance and at that stage the club won't know whether it can cover its costs or not so it has to commit to a big payout without knowing what its income will be. Some meetings will make money & some will lose money. Clearly the succesful meetings will cover some of the losses from the less succesful ones but it pretty easy to put on 2 or 3 meetings in a year that lose £10k each. I have used this example before but when CSCC last put on a meeting at Rockingham the weekend cost £78K & the club took in £73K despite grids that most clubs would have seen as pretty reasonable.

Circuit hire is clearly the biggest element of the weekend costs & I do believe that the circuits cannot keep putting hire costs up. Costs need to be contained in every area in order to keep club racing viable. Timekeepers may not be that expensive but every last £ that can be saved will help. What we are talking about here is amateur sport & I'd take the chance on auto timing if it saved me a few £ on my entry fee. Every £ counts to me.

Also, I think that the MSA take £22 of each entry fee, what do we get from that?

If running a race club was a true business activity, I doubt that any of us would do it.

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by andy97

.............Running a club is a bit of a knife edge activity - most circuits require paying, I think, 6 weeks in advance and at that stage the club won't know whether it can cover its costs or not so it has to commit to a big payout without knowing what its income will be. Some meetings will make money & some will lose money.

Circuit hire is clearly the biggest element of the weekend costs & I do believe that the circuits cannot keep putting hire costs up. Costs need to be contained in every area in order to keep club racing viable. Timekeepers may not be that expensive but every last £ that can be saved will help. What we are talking about here is amateur sport & I'd take the chance on auto timing if it saved me a few £ on my entry fee. Every £ counts to me.

Also, I think that the MSA take £22 of each entry fee, what do we get from that?

If running a race club was a true business activity, I doubt that any of us would do it.

1) Sorry but IT IS AUTO TIMING NOW!!! no one sits there with a stop watch anymore !!!! we have done the timekeeping to death, suggest it to the CSCC and see if you can do it, its the MSA you have to convince as well, but, if I was given the choice of Timekeepers or no Timekeepers...I would still choose to have them as an Organising club....what next, dont bother with Scrutineers and let Dave form the garage down the road give it the all clear? ha ha (Im only joking Andy btw...dont think imn having a dig)

2) The MSA takes the £22 pounds to cover your insurance per capita Andy, its how the insurance works for Motorsport events, so that should the worst happen, you are covered by the MSA policy, the organising club pays this on the permit, and it can be alot more than 22 quid depending on the permit (clubman, Nat A or Nat B or then international)

We've gone full circle becaause it was your post that said the same as what Im thinking, it is the circuit hire that is the biggest thing, but, it still needs to make money and it srtill needs to maintain its track licence and all the saftey elements and equipment etc etc....its a big commitment for them to do, Im not defending their costs, I have no idea what the cost of rumnning something like a circuit is, bnut, long after you finish racing this season, that will still be there, still be paying rates etc...and perm staff...it all adds up

If its a case of Amatuer sport, then the track day route is becoming more popular, with championships for track day people....and no licencing etc etc...simple logic, no timings etc.....if that is what you are saying you want, then be careful what you wish for

[Paul D]

Claire - just playing Devil's advocate here, but how can there be 'Trackday championships' without the need for licencing, timing, etc? I don't understand that. The only trackday chamionships I'm aware of are those run by MSV, but they are proper races just like any other club race. And as such, they bring with them all the same expenses such as race kit, licences, scrutineering, etc.

On every trackday I've ever heard of, you are specifically not allowed to race - it's not allowed to have any competitive element, because if it did, then it becomes racing... and see above.

Have I missed something here?

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by Paul D

Claire - just playing Devil's advocate here, but how can there be 'Trackday championships' without the need for licencing, timing, etc? I don't understand that. The only trackday chamionships I'm aware of are those run by MSV, but they are proper races just like any other club race. And as such, they bring with them all the same expenses such as race kit, licences, scrutineering, etc.

On every trackday I've ever heard of, you are specifically not allowed to race - it's not allowed to have any competitive element, because if it did, then it becomes racing... and see above.

Have I missed something here?

Yes Paul, you are stating my point EXACTLY!!!. The MSV trackday is as stated by them for novice drivers, the Cars have to be built to the same MSA regs (roll cages, Extinguishers etc) but (and I quote) "the series are reasonably relaxed, so that drivers who have already developed cars for trackdays without having to follow any rules will still be eligible." (their words not mine)


The MSV Track Day thing requires the same technology as any club, it states you must have a "Timing Module" etc, but it ALSO states that "The setting and servicing of these items must only be carried out by properly authroised MSA licensed Timekeepers" in other words YOU STILL NEED TIMEKEEPERS

I am saying that without all the stuff that you need (timekeepers, Licences, Race Kit etc, as per your post) you are left with a TRACK DAY...and that (as you have just said Is NOT a "proper race" is it?) PLUS, you take the risk of putting your car out amoung anyone who turns up, no regulation, no specific measurement of compedence, they have a driving licence, attend a briefing and then away they go....

[Paul D]

OK - sorry Claire, I mis-understood what you were saying in the previous post! Now I get your point, and yes, you're correct.

Personally, it's the competitive element that I like - trackdays would soon bore me. I like to know that the guy I've just overtaken was doing everything in his power to keep me behind him! Don't really want to be out on track with the sort of guy who has an F40 and claims the only reason that Fiesta passed him out on track was because he was 'just having a breather on that lap'!

However, getting back to the point, I do agree that racing seems to be getting even more expensive, and it was never cheap. But entry fees keep rising, fuel & tyres keep rising, and, although I can't speak for everyone else - being self-employed, my income ain't rising to match! Just the opposite, in fact, and I know I'm not alone in that. If costs keep rising the way they have in the last year or two, then I know it's only a matter of time before many are simply priced out of the sport - either partially, or altogether. And that would be a shame if there is a way of streamlining things and making it more affordable.

A few people have already said elsewhere on here that they're going to be restricting their activities to circuits closer to home, and that's something that I'm also probably going to do - with tow vehicles that don't scrape even 20 to the gallon, and fuel at six quid a gallon, the cost of getting to far flung circuits is, frankly, ridiculous - especially when it's added to the other spiralling costs.

[IAN #51]

I agree entirely what Paul says that is my sentiments to my own future in racing and the alternatives . People ask me if I'm on drugs when I tell them how much I spend racing ! I often reply it would be cheaper to be a junkie

Come the revolution

[Flat Out Farr]

Originally Posted by chezza

I'm sorry Chris, I have to say motorsport...if something were to happen to you diving your only likely to cause harm to yourself, with motorsport your in charge of what is potentially a killing machine. You could not only injure yourself, but other drivers and marshals. I know anyone can be come incapacitated and well managed diabetes can cause no issues, but...!

Hopefully will bump into you sometime over the last two meetings Chris.

Cheryl,

Scuba diving is not something you do by yourself. I am happy to talk to you when I will probably see you on 12th Nov @ Brands. It sounds like you may not fully understand how diabetes affects you etc. PM me etc. I could get a private pilot's licence as well, if I had the money. I also have a RYA Power-Boat licence !

See you soon.

[johngee]

As has already been acknowledged, the bigest single single cost (by far) of a race meeting is the circuit hire. Now, let's be clear - I don't have a brief from MSV (for example) but the increase in the quality of circuit infrastructure, over the past few years, has been staggering compared with say five years ago. The toilets are clean, the catering is excellent but, more importantly, the safety equipment, which we all take for granted, has been improved (cameras etc.) beyond measure. It all costs money to provide and I, for one, wouldn't want to go back to the Octagen days, where nothing worked properly and the toilets were like a third world country.
Claire has already made the point regarding timekeeping (Al - I've read you post but how would you feel if you went to, say, Snetteton, raced and then we said "sorry Mr Weyman, your transponder wasn't working and you're not in the results")
We need to minimise all the costs, directly or indirectly, that we can (and put pressure on the MSA to do so too) but (like running a car, there's road fund, insurance, petrol etc.) there's costs that just can't be avoided. We just have to use our best efforts to reduce those that we can and, as an organising club, give the best possible value for money.