[BTCC] Round Ten, Brands Hatch GP 23-24 Oct, Races 28,29&30

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Playing devils advocate, the straight line speed of the BMW is about "on par" with the Infinity. I think its the curly bits they need to improve.

Looking at the speed traps from this weekend, the BMW actually consistently quicker than the Infiniti. The quickest cars on the grid (in the traps) seems to be the Dynamics Civic and AT-S's Cupra.

As you say, carrying the speed (and particularly weight) in the corners seems to be where the gap to the Infiniti occurs.

[GT6]

great final day of the season and a very good attendance at brands, at times it was hard to get around with the people. some great racing and plenty of action. Agreed the support races were good this year. Already looking forward to 2022.

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Looking at the speed traps from this weekend, the BMW actually consistently quicker than the Infiniti. The quickest cars on the grid (in the traps) seems to be the Dynamics Civic and AT-S's Cupra.

As you say, carrying the speed (and particularly weight) in the corners seems to be where the gap to the Infiniti occurs.

Someone mentioned the BMW aero package was a bit duff this year? Does that have any substance to it?

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Evantra

Also of note was how good the support series all were this year. Big grids and open battles for the championship. Even F4 was watchable this year. Only disappointment of course was not being able to watch half of them (Mini Challenge, looking at you.)

In terms of what you saw, the following was live:

BTCC - 30/30
Porsche Carrera Cup - 10/16
Ginetta GT4 - 10/23
MINI JCW - 8/19
F4 - 11/30
Ginetta Junior - 9/25

So in percentage terms, it was Juniors that was worst off when it comes to what you saw, there was just over 42% of the MINI races live (counting only the 'full time' supports)

[mprmke]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Someone mentioned the BMW aero package was a bit duff this year? Does that have any substance to it?

They did have struggles with aero, and also the fact they believe they were unfairly down on boost levels (I agree with them on that). I think they were unfairly penalised during 2019 when they had by far the best package, and have been pegged back ever since. It was a similar situation to Sutton in the Infiniti the last two season. The best car/driver combination and had they not been running the TOCA engine, then they would have undoubtedly received the same treatment.

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by mprmke

They did have struggles with aero, and also the fact they believe they were unfairly down on boost levels (I agree with them on that). I think they were unfairly penalised during 2019 when they had by far the best package, and have been pegged back ever since. It was a similar situation to Sutton in the Infiniti the last two season. The best car/driver combination and had they not been running the TOCA engine, then they would have undoubtedly received the same treatment.

Well lets face is, the number of performance sanctions the RWD cars have had are almost too long to list, however RWD still finished 1-2 in the championship...

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

In terms of what you saw, the following was live:

BTCC - 30/30
Porsche Carrera Cup - 10/16
Ginetta GT4 - 10/23
MINI JCW - 8/19
F4 - 11/30
Ginetta Junior - 9/25

So in percentage terms, it was Juniors that was worst off when it comes to what you saw, there was just over 42% of the MINI races live (counting only the 'full time' supports)

Have you included all the different series in you calculations? Because the Minis, Ginettas and Porsches all had different series racing on the TOCA package at different circuits, so although, for example, 10 out of 16 Porsche races were shown, were some of them from both of the series that were on the package?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by mprmke

They did have struggles with aero, and also the fact they believe they were unfairly down on boost levels (I agree with them on that). I think they were unfairly penalised during 2019 when they had by far the best package, and have been pegged back ever since. It was a similar situation to Sutton in the Infiniti the last two season. The best car/driver combination and had they not been running the TOCA engine, then they would have undoubtedly received the same treatment.

I think it still comes down to the situation that has developed, where a reduction in performance applied to the Infiniti is difficult to achieve without impacting other rivals.

When Honda or BMW were at the front, their engines could be targeted.
When it was one RWD model, the specific characteristics of RWD could be targeted.
Currently, If you target a RWD characteristic - then the second place car suffers. If you target the TOCA engine, most of the grid suffers.

Although whilst a RWD did finish second, the field from 2nd to 4th was varied and close.

Perhaps the reductions in performance should be targeted at drivers who have a first name starting with 'A'?

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by Northern Monkey

So in percentage terms, it was Juniors that was worst off when it comes to what you saw

I suspect the Juniors also had "least laps completed vs laps they should have completed" - Saturday was just a mess for the Juniors, they barely got any running in with saftey cars and red flags. That's probably why they get less Sunday time - they waste it.

[mprmke]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I think it still comes down to the situation that has developed, where a reduction in performance applied to the Infiniti is difficult to achieve without impacting other rivals.

When Honda or BMW were at the front, their engines could be targeted.
When it was one RWD model, the specific characteristics of RWD could be targeted.
Currently, If you target a RWD characteristic - then the second place car suffers. If you target the TOCA engine, most of the grid suffers.

Although whilst a RWD did finish second, the field from 2nd to 4th was varied and close.

Perhaps the reductions in performance should be targeted at drivers who have a first name starting with 'A'?

Yes, that's exactly what I mean.

They can't reduce the Infiniti's boost. It's just performing so well because of the driver and his driving style/unique set-up and elite level talent being able to get much more out of it than anyone else.

They shouldn't have reduced the BMW's boost because Turkington (and Jordan at the time being not far behind) and the car were just that good, but still within the regulations. But with their own engine, and let's face it, BMW and Honda developed far superior powerplants to the TOCA unit, they were an easy target.

Hybrid should shake things up a bit next season.....

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by mprmke

Hybrid should shake things up a bit next season.....

I think that the hybrid will make the gap between the front teams and the mid-pack greater, and might see certain cars have a greater advantage.

Why?

Sutton has regularly stated that the Infiniti has been designed to carry ballast - so in essence the core design is based around the overall car weight being 75kg higher than the current minimum weight.
Some of the other front runners may have also done this - Honda and BMW for example. But - the performance of the Hyundai and Ford has indicated that they don't carry the weight as well.
From the start of next season, all cars are now running effectively a higher base weight. If the Cupra, Vauxhall, Hyundai etc. have not been designed around this higher weight, they may struggle from the outset.
IMO, Sutton won the title by getting results when the car was heavy - and not because he had more power.

Teams who designed current cars expecting to be at the front and challenging for titles may be at an advantage under the hybrid regulations.
Teams that designed their cars expecting to be near the front, and capitalise on R3 results may now suffer.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Have you included all the different series in you calculations? Because the Minis, Ginettas and Porsches all had different series racing on the TOCA package at different circuits, so although, for example, 10 out of 16 Porsche races were shown, were some of them from both of the series that were on the package?

No, as I said, I only did it for the full time supports

[antnee]

Hybrid should spice things up nicely and add another dimension. For the drivers who are very quick to react to situations, it could see them making a lot more overtakes. Being able to force the car in front to use up the power earlier in a lap defending, while storing their own up for use later in the lap.

[porsche962fan]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I think it still comes down to the situation that has developed, where a reduction in performance applied to the Infiniti is difficult to achieve without impacting other rivals.

When Honda or BMW were at the front, their engines could be targeted.
When it was one RWD model, the specific characteristics of RWD could be targeted.
Currently, If you target a RWD characteristic - then the second place car suffers. If you target the TOCA engine, most of the grid suffers.

Although whilst a RWD did finish second, the field from 2nd to 4th was varied and close.

Perhaps the reductions in performance should be targeted at drivers who have a first name starting with 'A'?

what nonsense

isn't in the rule book that the chamopionship administrator may apply penalties to any individual car/ team at any time ?

ottherwise WSR are utter fools if they don't switch to the TOCA engine to avoid said penalties

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

what nonsense

isn't in the rule book that the chamopionship administrator may apply penalties to any individual car/ team at any time ?

ottherwise WSR are utter fools if they don't switch to the TOCA engine to avoid said penalties

Yes - the rules give the series administrator the authority to review certain technical aspects of any car during the series - but what criteria of the Infiniti do you think should be reviewed and amended? (Penalties are for infringements, I don't think BMR/Laser breached any technical regulations).

The WSR cars have never been individually restricted, but calculations have been made that impacted their engine or drivetrain (and any other car/team running the same unit or layout). The purpose of NGTC regulations was that independent teams could compete with manufacturers, and TOCA engines could compete with manufacturer units. That has been the case, and it is only in the hands of Sutton that a non-manufacturer engine has taken the title.

What would your solution be to the problem you seem to think exists?

[porsche962fan]

a bit less boost to the Infiniti alone, that simple

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

a bit less boost to the Infiniti alone, that simple

Against what criteria?

If they just decide that a car that won 6 races this season is too fast, they need to be more technical than just reduce the boost of that car.
BMW took 7 wins. Honda FK8(TOCA) took 6 wins.

All teams sign up to the agreement that a boost adjustment is imposed on all cars running the same engine. If you start to make the type of changes you are suggesting - which is basically saying that if your talent is too high you will be restricted - then why should BMR/Sutton stay in the championship?

As it is - it took until R29 of a 30-round season for the title to be decided.

It always amazes me that BTCC viewers find it so difficult to just praise someone for their performance.


2019:

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

another procession .... BTCC is getting stale and has been regulated to boredoom

2021:

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

another procession .... BTCC is getting stale and needs more regulation

[antnee]

But the Infiniti isn't some blinding-quick car though. Sutton may have won the championship in it, but through good reliability Moffat has bettered his previous results. Boardley only scored 29 points over a full season yet Cammish scored more points in a single round in a Honda.

[Mike Harte]

And as, I believe, Turkington said yesterday, if he managed to get 6th or 7th in every race next year, he could or would win the championship.

You really have to admire Sutton's driving and attitude this season because he outdid what has always been Turkington's prowess in previous years - just slowly building up the points and trying to sty out of trouble, rather that attempting to win every race.

And it seems that pretty well all the top drivers appreciated his winning the title this year, and I think that it churlish for armchair viewers to criticise the system or regulations because he was the class of the field by some margin.

[porsche962fan]

Originally Posted by antnee

But the Infiniti isn't some blinding-quick car though. Sutton may have won the championship in it, but through good reliability Moffat has bettered his previous results. Boardley only scored 29 points over a full season yet Cammish scored more points in a single round in a Honda.

Oliphant wasn't doing that well while Turks and Jordan won races in the BMW yet they still penalised them

[porsche962fan]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

2019:

2021:

wow you keep recorld ol old quates?

yes this is not so creepy

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

wow you keep recorld ol old quates?

No - the forum contains search functions. Seriously though, do you want BTCC to regulate results more, or less? Or is it just that you'll criticise whatever they do?

[porsche962fan]

I really hate inconsistency of TOCA, back in the days Hondas were peggeed back , in 2011 they even forced them to run 0.1 bar less turbo boost compared to the other turbo cars

WSR in 2019 build a good car without being unconventional like the boxer engine , maybe made to look better thanks to 2 crack drivers , mid season penalties came first they had to chose higher ride height or more weight than boost reduction by giving everyone else more boost

2020-2021 Infiniti is top dog , specially in 2021 clearly obvious that it carry 75kg weight while his rivals can't perform with it yet here TOCA doesn't apply any penalties

[SR18]

Did no one see Suttons jump start from R2? Ridiculous that he didn't got penalised

[SR18]

Originally Posted by BTCC frog

Huge credit to Ash Sutton for taking the championship. A fantastic season from him, it's rare that it is clear who will win the title so early in the year. Hopefully the rest will be closer next year, and I think they will be. WSR have had a bad season by their high standards, but they will be back stronger and hopefully Turkington will stay. Tom Ingram should also be stronger when he and the team have more experience with the Hyundai. The scrapping of success ballast should also reduce Sutton's advantage. Congratulations, Ash Sutton. Class drives too from Josh Cook, who is now third in the championship and will start ahead of Hill and Ingram for the final race, and Dan Lloyd with a fourth podium in the last three rounds, as Power Maxed's season has absolutely turned on its head.

Success ballast is going to be scrapped???