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Old 12 Feb 2008, 18:09   #1
rogerwills
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rogerwills should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridrogerwills should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
HSCC Saloons / Historic Racing Saloons Register (HRSR)

Second time at this post – first time I wrote for 20 minutes and all was lost!

I received today a letter from HRSR regarding their recent AGM where there was a lively debate about oversize engined cars running in the series.

Along with the letter is a voting form that will determine how the series is run for 2009 and beyond so if you are a member of HRSR and race a saloon I would encourage you to vote.

The background is that in 2000 at the AGM it was proposed that all cars running in HRSR would need to run engines as per homologation papers as many cars at that time were running oversize engines. As I understand what happened at that time, anyone with an oversize engine could race until 2003 but no new oversized engine cars would be allowed. There was also some form of freeze on selling a car to another competitor if it had an oversize engine. Anyhow, that’s not that important. Apparently they then agreed not to enforce this for 2004 and it has remained that way with some cars running oversize engines in 2007 (and they will be out in 2008 as well). I believe that no new cars are allowed with oversize engines.

The debate at the 2007 AGM was if going forward, oversize engined cars should be allowed and we are now being asked to vote. This is to determine if only the oversized engine cars currently allowed to run are allowed to continue running but no new oversize engines or if anyone can run an oversize engine.

I feel the third option should have been included – that by say 2009, no oversize engine cars at all should be eligible! I missed my right to participate in the AGM so have myself to blame for not being part of the democratic process.

My issue with this is that it diminishes from the quality of racing for competitors in FIA cars (except Mustangs or other V8s) to compete with other cars of their type. For me, my 1600cc FIA Cortina can never hope to compete with a Cortina running a 2 litre twin cam and 4 wheel discs. Also the hot Anglias (running 1300cc as 100E or 1500cc as 105E), 2010cc Alfas, etc all mean that there have been few FIA cars competing recently, except again Mustangs which pack the muscle to run with these far quicker cars.

We are not all out there for overall honours and there is always a race to be had with the cars around you. But for me it’s a big negative of the HSCC saloon racing and detracts from the great racing they have in other series.

The argument regularly aired is that FIA cars often run near the front of the grid and have been very successful. My experience is that this is true of a Mustang but even the best driver in an FIA Cortina is going to be left in the dust by most of the hot cars running outside homologation spec.

If the series opens up for more oversize engine cars from 2009 and beyond, then it is unlikely to attract too many FIA cars in my opinion. I feel they should move to homologated specs over a reasonable period to keep to the spirit of historic racing as is currently widely recognised.

There has of course been huge debate on this issue on these forums, in the paddock and countless bars. Clearly one can see which way I will be voting and if anyone needs help with which box to tick on the form, please let me know!

I would encourage everyone to vote who has an interest. And perhaps we can conduct some form of debate / discussion here as well.

Roger
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Old 12 Feb 2008, 18:40   #2
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Go 454 Roger go 454, no sod it go the whole hog, 501ci!

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I don't race with them as my car is post 70 but if I did you would definitely have my vote keep em stock capacity and seal the engines.
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Old 12 Feb 2008, 18:47   #3
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rogerwills should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridrogerwills should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
One more observation. The vote is open to all members from 2007. But why? This is about the future of the series. Anyone who is currently a member should be entitled to vote, not only last year's members.
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Old 12 Feb 2008, 19:26   #4
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One more observation. The vote is open to all members from 2007. But why? This is about the future of the series. Anyone who is currently a member should be entitled to vote, not only last year's members.
Roger
Thank you for the comments of your thread opener. It is indeed the HRSR committee's desire that all members vote on this issue. Hopefully all comments will be as constructive as yours, whether for or against.

The reason for restricting the vote to 2007 members is twofold :

1. We only have around 35 registered members so far for 2008 against 65 members in 2007.

2. The issue was a proposal at the 2007 AGM held in early December. However, it has been a hot topic for several years and the discussion at the AGM was 'spirited' with several alternatives raised from the floor as well as some members wanting no change from the status quo and some wanting all oversize engines to be banned. It was agreed that it would be left to the committee to filter the suggestions made and to put a proposal to the members that best fitted both the original proposal and the suggestions from the floor. Bear in mind that no proposal was requested for the AGM agenda that banned all oversize engines. Given that we were to make a proposal stemming from the AGM it was then fair that only those entitled to be at the AGM should be given a vote on the issue - hence the restriction to the 2007 membership.

Peter Wray
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Old 13 Feb 2008, 07:48   #5
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simon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
sadly as the committee is increasingly being added to by fellow hot rod owners it is unlikely to ever change. The ironic part is that Alfa Romeo didn't even produce a 2 litre engine until the early 70's so the whole thing is more modsports than historic pre 66.
I am sure that this series does have a place in racing but I personally dont think its with the HSCC as it dilutes the other series.
I stopped racing with HRSR when they reversed the decision to go "legit" on engine sizes.
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Old 13 Feb 2008, 08:16   #6
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terence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridterence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Thankfully there does now seem to be more people who want to have legally sized engines etc that are more inline with the FIA Regs,saddly it would seem that if all of the registered members were made to comply the number would decrease from 35.
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Old 13 Feb 2008, 08:23   #7
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simon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
maybe Morning Gents could enlighten us as to how many of the 35 registered members are running FIA legal cars. Where are Top Hat on this? In the days of Julius he was moving towards only allowing FIA cars but I think that was relaxed to a degree....
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Old 13 Feb 2008, 08:28   #8
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Unfortunately giving competitors the vote as to what happens in a championship/series can also give it the kiss of death and I should know as this was the start of the rot setting in in ModProds when a group of determined people backing a mate and also joining the club to get a vote forced something through that was alien to the original concept of the regs I laid down.

When we set the whole thing up it was based on being a driver demorcratic championship but sadly this did not work out especially when one of the first things to go was the buying/selling plate rule because in the end some people unfortunately need to be protected from the excesses of their own spending, they just cannot help themselves.

I have now come round to the think that a better system is like we have in CTCRC which is as in government we elect a committee to make decisions not have a vote on every rule change. This is not to say suggestions cannot be made or put to the floor at the AGM but the final decision good or bad must be made by the commitee and if you don't like as I pray will happen to 'Our Ken' in London, vote them out next year. Can you imagine what it would be like if every decision taken in parliament had to be put to the people via a referendum!
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Old 13 Feb 2008, 08:40   #9
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Originally Posted by simon drabble
maybe Morning Gents could enlighten us as to how many of the 35 registered members are running FIA legal cars. Where are Top Hat on this? In the days of Julius he was moving towards only allowing FIA cars but I think that was relaxed to a degree....
I think that perhaps the backlash of the organiser's allowing the oversized engine's is now coming to the fore .Masters and HSCC have started the ball rolling [Perhaps an off shoot of Jeremys action at Silverstone a couple of years ago].I must say that it is about time and I hope this apparent trend continues.HSCC have proven that it can work,so if people want to race thier hotrods then let them go elsewhere.
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Old 13 Feb 2008, 09:44   #10
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Originally Posted by simon drabble
maybe Morning Gents could enlighten us as to how many of the 35 registered members are running FIA legal cars. Where are Top Hat on this? In the days of Julius he was moving towards only allowing FIA cars but I think that was relaxed to a degree....

Simon
I can't tell you how many are running FIA legal cars but of the 35 registered so far for 2008 there are 10 entered in the App K classes. In 2007 there were 19 out of 65 members in the App K classes, so consistently around 29 percent.
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Old 14 Feb 2008, 18:16   #11
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To be reasonable, if you want to run a car like this why not run it with the HSCC? It is after all their class and club.

I can see the FIA legal point, but not everyone wants to spend that amount to race. If you don't like the class then don't enter. There are plenty of other places to race an FIA car unless you consider the other places to be "bent" in which case the argument is self defeating.

I really think it is close to what was known as Group 5 touring cars (1967) and as such I'd be more inclined to complain that they don't allow Porsche 911s rather than ask them to restrict themselves to FIA App K. This class has a rightful place in history thus it follows that a club with "Historic" in its name would be a logical place. Of course if the other word was "Sportscar" you might have an argument but as that is no.................. Oh wait!

Superspeed Anglia anyone?
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Old 14 Feb 2008, 19:51   #12
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Did somebody mention Anglia's
And its on my 1000th post
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Old 15 Feb 2008, 07:50   #13
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Peter you are right - it is Group 5. In which case allow twin cam Anglia's in as well as 911 etc.. but stop the 2 litre Alfa's as that is not correct to any period......
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Old 15 Feb 2008, 09:25   #14
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Fair comment. Perhaps they would, I might consider running one too.
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Old 15 Feb 2008, 09:32   #15
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twin cammed Anglia were rapid in period - driven by many including John Burbage later an E Type driver and whose obituary is in this week's Autosport. Around where I live he is as well known for his very good baker's shop! His son raced bikes I think I am right in saying....
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