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Old 22 Jul 2010, 21:45   #151
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Originally Posted by porsche91722 View Post
I agree. There have been a few people who have turned up/returned here recently, who seem hell bent on trying to impress the rest of us poor, uneducated souls, with their lengthy, waffling on responses, and I think we all know who they are and their history. We won't think any less of you, if you can keep it more concise.
Absolutely the contrary... it has nothing to do with ego or pride or agenda... it has to do with the true, and truth above any social esthetic's imcumberements... of people policing each other by terms of acceptance and social approval where nobody dares to flee from the norm.

I can be annoying sometimes, which i apologize... but i prefer to be like the illiterate peasant kid that asks " why is the emperor naked" in Anderson tale of "The emperor new clothes"... than any other way.

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Old 22 Jul 2010, 23:42   #152
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I don't believe those rumors. The true is that Audi got a hell of a luck to win this year in lemans, and 1 -2 -3... 1 in 50 years... they gave Peugeot the upper hand in torque, 6 power strokes per rev of their V12, against 5 power strokes per rev of his V10... and clearly they were not a match to Peugeot.

Hard to believe they risk to make the same mistake again.
I don't understand the logic there, as displacement governs torque to a larger extent then the number of cylinders.

Look at the old Ford based pushrod 6.0 V8 that Panoz used and the 6.0 V12 that BMW used. The Ford/Elan V8, by your logic had 4 strokes/rpm vs the 6 strokes/rpm of the V12. However, the Ford V8 made as much if not more power, and had more torque. And that with a heavy crossplane crank compared to the V12's crank, let alone the flatplane crank the Audi 3.6 turbo V8 used.

The Ford's biggest failing was that it got relatively poor fuel mileage, while the Audi V8's big advantage was turbocharging, which meant that the 3.6 V8 had to rev to 6250 rpm to make 600+ hp, and normally redlined at 7000rpm, like the Ford V8 and the BMW V12, and got better fuel mileage, especially when the FSI direct injection system was used, which boosted power and torque as well, and essentally got rid of any low rpm turbo lag the Audi engine had.

The Audi and Peugeot engines, be it the Audi and Pug V12s and or the Audi V10 are all 5.5 liters, and all are easily making 680-700hp, if not more, and are making close to 900ft/lbs(1200nm) of torque, if not more. Audi went to the V10 from a V12 with the R15 because the engine was about 4-5 inches shorter and weighted 50 or so pounds less, and helped give the R15 better weight distribution compared to the R10 or the 908. So I don't see powerwise where Audi has given anything up-if anything, they've gained over the R10's V12, as at Paul Ricard the R15 had no trouble keeping up with(and at times out running) the Oreca 908 down the Mistral straight(while having similar or somewhat superior cornering) and had better straightline speed at Spa(though the LM areo setup probably helped in that area).

The only thing I'd have against Audi going the V6 route is that not counting the various incarnations of the Porsche Boxer 6, V6s haven't had much success at Le Mans-the WM's Peugeot branded PRV V6s were either underpowered or were handgrenades. Hopefully Audi won't go the V6 route for that reason, and if they do, I hope they know what they're doing.
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Old 23 Jul 2010, 00:05   #153
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That accounts also for traction control systems... are they abolished also ?... my idea of 4 in-wheel motor/generators is that they could work as a great traction control system as well as a ABS system, along with motor/generator action, all in the same system, and 4WD will permit better curve handling, acceleration and braking... ok driver help
Currently traction control is allowed but only by cutting the engine (rule 1.10.4). ABS or engine braking on the other hand are prohibited (rule 12.4).
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" Energy recovery systems using brakes must not be active during braking for curves (driver aids banned)."

this must be the joke of the year... next they will withdraw the driving wheel because that is a driver aid!... go for mind control steering systems instead... only misses this one..
It only talks about recovery of energy in corners (= driver aid during braking). Release of energy in corners (= driver aid during acceleration) is no regulated. So probably it will be allowed.

In fact David Floury of Oreca already made the following comment:
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Reading between the lines, one sees what one and the other asked. It also allows four-wheel drive, which means an additional equivalence. Indirectly, I guess it will also allow traction control. The hybrid may become a pretext for electronic functions which will improve the behavior of the car on the track. And these systems are very expensive.
http://www.endurance-info.com/versio...ance-4623.html
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Old 23 Jul 2010, 00:21   #154
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The only thing I'd have against Audi going the V6 route is that not counting the various incarnations of the Porsche Boxer 6, V6s haven't had much success at Le Mans-the WM's Peugeot branded PRV V6s were either underpowered or were handgrenades.
Not that successfull, but still: http://www.mulsannescorner.com/dallaralmp11.html
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Old 23 Jul 2010, 00:43   #155
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Sadly, that engine DNF'd at Le Mans even after being bumped up to 3.6 liters. V6's haven't done well, and it seems that you need at least a V8 to do well at Le Mans, especially in an LMP1.
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Old 23 Jul 2010, 07:25   #156
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Originally Posted by chernaudi View Post
The only thing I'd have against Audi going the V6 route is that not counting the various incarnations of the Porsche Boxer 6, V6s haven't had much success at Le Mans-the WM's Peugeot branded PRV V6s were either underpowered or were handgrenades. Hopefully Audi won't go the V6 route for that reason, and if they do, I hope they know what they're doing.


I'm pretty sure that whatever engine they pick, they'll darn well know what they're doing; you've got a few geniuses of engineering in the engine design team at Audi, WM/WR is/was just a small private team.
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Old 23 Jul 2010, 12:56   #157
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... WM/WR is/was just a small private team.
... with little more than zero involvement from Peugeot in the WM times!
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Old 24 Jul 2010, 03:41   #158
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Originally Posted by chernaudi View Post
I don't understand the logic there, as displacement governs torque to a larger extent then the number of cylinders.
This things are not so linear... so easy to generalize. But in a way its correct.

What i was comparing was Audi to Peugeot, they have the same displacement... then, when you have more power strokes for each rev of the crankshaft, there is a tremendous amount of chance that you can get more torque, than an engine that has the same displacement but less power stokes per rev.
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Old 24 Jul 2010, 04:36   #159
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Originally Posted by gwyllion View Post
Currently traction control is allowed but only by cutting the engine (rule 1.10.4). ABS or engine braking on the other hand are prohibited (rule 12.4).
bad rules...really... "fait divers" to justify doing nothing... traction control already happens to an extent with electronic controllable differentials... ABS actually many pilots don't like them because they tend to lengthen brake distances, tires have so much grip that is preferable to leave a mark in the tarmac... the engine always brake, unless you clutch them ofline anytime the foot gets off the accelerator.

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It only talks about recovery of energy in corners (= driver aid during braking). Release of energy in corners (= driver aid during acceleration) is no regulated. So probably it will be allowed.
No words... i'm baffled with ACO... i don't know how they will manage this

If its possible during the brake before a corner/curve, but no during a corner/curve, is it when the driving wheel turns it gets the recovery system shut off ?? ... or how are they going to impose this ?? ... what about when a driver quick changes lane, because of retards and has to brake ?? ... what else ??

To me it seems that they should abolish hybrids, because if recovery is not allowed during braking for corner/curves, it eliminates the most single more efficient way of energy recuperation.

It seems that they don't want hybrids... CLEARLY... ANOTHER PROPAGANDA... a mental diarrhea...

1) any kind of energy recovery is allowed etc ( the mantra)

2) Only store electric and mechanical( leaves out the most efficient of all - hydraulic)... so they don't want hydraulic, transporting to our streets hydro-mechanical IVT transmissions and ~20% fuel saving in day by day

3) NO efficient way of energy recuperation is allowed...that is, nothing during braking... for corner/curves ???... but why in the hell would anyone brake in a race if not for a corner/curve !?... so no brake recuperation.

Someone please post the insults.. thank you!

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Originally Posted by gwyllion View Post
In fact David Floury of Oreca already made the following comment:

http://www.endurance-info.com/versio...ance-4623.html
4WD could be a good innovation

After considering all this, i wouldn't be surprised if Audi R18 has no hybrid system at all, but has 4WD... hybrid is marketing only... pure marketose... with this rules.

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Old 24 Jul 2010, 06:35   #160
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No, I think you just have no clue what you are babbling about. The post you referenced said energy recovery would be allowed from the braking into the corners, otherwise what would be the point of having a hybrid system? As for the release, it sounded like the rules are free as long as the energy is used only in addition to the natural acceleration of the car with the throttle, no push-to-pass buttons. Although I'm not sure how that would work for the electric drive down pitlane that every seems to think teams want, guess under a certain speed a button could be used similar to pitlane limiter and braking into pitlane would help top off the system.
As for ABS for a TC system, isn't ABS as a whole outlawed in most series?? Seems like it, guys wouldn't be sliding off the track with the wheels locked if they had ABS onboard.
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Old 24 Jul 2010, 09:11   #161
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bad rules...really... "fait divers" to justify doing nothing... traction control already happens to an extent with electronic controllable differentials...
As I said earlier, traction control is allowed, as long as the system only operates on the engine (so not on brakes, etc).

The LMP rules don't allow "electronic controllable differentials" (see rule 9.3.1). This is not F1.
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ABS actually many pilots don't like them because they tend to lengthen brake distances, tires have so much grip that is preferable to leave a mark in the tarmac...
Yet BMW fitted the M3 with ABS for the Nurburgring 24 hours.
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If its possible during the brake before a corner/curve, but no during a corner/curve, is it when the driving wheel turns it gets the recovery system shut off ?? ... or how are they going to impose this ?? ... what about when a driver quick changes lane, because of retards and has to brake ?? ... what else ??
Why would this be difficult to impose? They can enforce the no ABS rule.
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To me it seems that they should abolish hybrids, because if recovery is not allowed during braking for corner/curves, it eliminates the most single more efficient way of energy recuperation.
You are jumping to conclusions. The rules are not yet published, only the main ideas are. Obviously energy recovery will be allowed during braking, as long as it does not act as driver aid.
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Originally Posted by hcl123 View Post
2) Only store electric and mechanical( leaves out the most efficient of all - hydraulic)... so they don't want hydraulic, transporting to our streets hydro-mechanical IVT transmissions and ~20% fuel saving in day by day
The 2011 rules are a starting point. The 2014/2015 rules will probably allow for a free transmission. So CVT might come in the future.
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After considering all this, i wouldn't be surprised if Audi R18 has no hybrid system at all, but has 4WD... hybrid is marketing only... pure marketose... with this rules.
You completely lost me. The only way to achieve 4WD will be to use a hybrid system Like Porsche does with the hybrid 911.
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Old 24 Jul 2010, 09:16   #162
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[QUOTE=hcl123;2731568]bad rules...really... "fait divers" to justify doing nothing... traction control already happens to an extent with electronic controllable differentials... ABS actually many pilots don't like them because they tend to lengthen brake distances, tires have so much grip that is preferable to leave a mark in the tarmac... the engine always brake, unless you clutch them ofline anytime the foot gets off the accelerator.


Sorry no insults as you requested, but are you talking about Sportscar in current era?


ABS was banned after 1998 when Porsche had it....and won Le Mans, Toyota and others were also working on their systems as it was faster, had more tyre management control and had less chance of driver mistakes when it was banned. If it was allowed LMP1's would have ABS, as would F1 or any other category of racing.

Electronically Controlled Differentials are illegal but traction control is, and has been allowed widely used since 2006. Also previously banned for 1999.

4WD could be a good innovation???? It has been in motorsport for over 30 years!! Where is innovation in that?
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Old 24 Jul 2010, 17:53   #163
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No, I think you just have no clue what you are babbling about. The post you referenced said energy recovery would be allowed from the braking into the corners, otherwise what would be the point of having a hybrid system? As for the release, it sounded like the rules are free as long as the energy is used only in addition to the natural acceleration of the car with the throttle, no push-to-pass buttons. Although I'm not sure how that would work for the electric drive down pitlane that every seems to think teams want, guess under a certain speed a button could be used similar to pitlane limiter and braking into pitlane would help top off the system.
As for ABS for a TC system, isn't ABS as a whole outlawed in most series?? Seems like it, guys wouldn't be sliding off the track with the wheels locked if they had ABS onboard.
You guessed right this is the most fundamental point into thinking of a hybrib solution... so its ok the rhetoric. My French is a little rusty... well more than a little,but:

  • Les systèmes de récupération d’énergie par les freins ne doivent pas être actifs dans les courbes (interdiction de l’aide au pilotage).

"dans les courbes" means inside the curves/corners... how in the hell are they going to manage that, and impose the rule... that is what i'm babbling about.

A technical solution all mechanical ?? ... electronic??... if restrictions go drakonian its equivalent of stopping brake recovery, many curves most of braking time its done already inside of it, specially the medium ones... some curves, the fast ones, some braking is done already inside the curve, there is a lot of situations when this happens, leading to a considerable waste of energy recovery possibilities, making the efficiency of the hybrid system to go down and the cost of implementing the restrictions go very high.

Don't worry about push to pass buttons, if recovery is deficient, there will only be enough juice to help in the first phases of acceleration for circuits like lemans. If they wanted an electric hybrid solution to fail... as long as there are suckers to take on the costs... only for the marketing of being "green"... this is a perfect rule for that.

That is why i say... i never heard of "rumors" about Audi testing an hybrid solution, and they don't have it in any commercial car if i'm not mistaken. So counting on the lax of rules to allow the continuation of 2010 type cars, its very possible that Audi R18 doesn't present an hybrid solution per se... maybe heat recuperation to pre-heat the fuel, and exhaust pressure to drive small generators to mainly(help?) power all engine auxiliaries by electric motors; water, oil and fuel pumps...

The electric/electronic control of those functions would make more easy to implement a real HCCI mode for the engine... and that could be a very good advantage already.
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Old 24 Jul 2010, 18:09   #164
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Electronically Controlled Differentials are illegal but traction control is, and has been allowed widely used since 2006. Also previously banned for 1999.

4WD could be a good innovation???? It has been in motorsport for over 30 years!! Where is innovation in that?
for differential they would go for torsen like ones in front and rear axles, midle one could be an viscose coupling ... 4WD "could" ( don't know if a permanent coupling will be allowed) be a re-introduction... so a novelty compared to previous years.
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Old 24 Jul 2010, 19:31   #165
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I'm an engineer for Cummins, so I like the diesel combustion discussion.

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