Peugeot 908 discussion

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

If neither of the two diesel teams comes to Le Mans next year with at least one of their three cars hybrid-ised, I'd be very surprised.

Well Audi won't - unless they believe they will win Le Mans that way.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Well Audi won't - unless they believe they will win Le Mans that way.

If Peugeot gain pace and fuel consumption with the hybrid system, then Audi will probably have no choice but to follow suit. Weren't they talking about "progressive electrification"? Or was that in a different context from energy recovery?

They might get from 11.9 to 12.1 laps on a tank of fuel that way.

[Aysedasi]

My understanding is technically limited (as always!), but Audi made it clear to us (in answer to a direct question on the point) that they will only go hybrid if they consider that a better bet to win. This isn't a team that will experiment for the fun/sake of it. However, Audi being Audi, they'll do it better than anyone else anyway!

[dxk1]

Originally Posted by Rennen

What a load of rubbish you spout! Peugoet ran three brand new cars, all which finished!

Their 2nd place car was only 15 seconds behind after 24 hours of 'flat out' racing!

Their cars swopped the lead many times throughout the event...and wheel to wheel on the track during the night!

Their 3rd place car was given a petty penalty because a mechanic forgot to put his goggles on!

And the 4th place car had an 'small' accident, which was repaired in 15 minutes that cost that car 4 laps, which it maintained to the end!

Do you suggest every Formula One team should give up because Red Bull currently have the best car ?

Hats off to Peugoet I say, they built new Cars and Engines on a FRACTION of the budget that Audi have!

And their Diesel Engine is more fuel efficient !

Vive le France!...I'd buy a stylish French Peugoet road car (and have done so for the past 10 years) any day over an Ugle Aggressive German Audi !

The only rubbish spouted here is yours because you are obviously a Peugeot lover and an Audi hater. Peugeot has 4 previous years of coupe experience, Audi lost the two cars with their most experienced drivers early on and won with the car with their least experienced drivers who drove to the front any time they wanted. The Audi could have easily won by a larger margin but was pretty much holding station for the last 2 to 3 hours. Do you or anyone doubt that Audi would have had a 1-2-3 if all the cars ran without issues? I would have preferred a Peugeot win so I'm not speaking as an Audi fan. Peugeot must be extremely disappointed even though they are trying to put a happy face on this by saying they got all their cars to the finish. They don't seem to be able to beat Audi at the game of balancing reliability with speed except once. This clearly should have been their year. Maybe I over-stated the point about reevaluating their effort, but I know I'd be extremely disheartened by this years outcome.

DK

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

My understanding is technically limited (as always!), but Audi made it clear to us (in answer to a direct question on the point) that they will only go hybrid if they consider that a better bet to win. This isn't a team that will experiment for the fun/sake of it. However, Audi being Audi, they'll do it better than anyone else anyway!

A better way to win, is also in marketing sense, like the diesel was .
And just on the point of the hybrids, i think we will see the Peugeot Hybrid, being minimum on par with the Audi, if not better. Remember Peugeot have been working on a Hybrid 908 for 2.5 years now.

[Aysedasi]

Maybe so marketing wise, although we were led to believe that the decisions are not as marketing -led as we might have thought previously.

[JAG]

This article covers such things.

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/a...of-motorsport/

[Rennen]

Originally Posted by dxk1

The only rubbish spouted here is yours because you are obviously a Peugeot lover and an Audi hater. Peugeot has 4 previous years of coupe experience, Audi lost the two cars with their most experienced drivers early on and won with the car with their least experienced drivers who drove to the front any time they wanted. The Audi could have easily won by a larger margin but was pretty much holding station for the last 2 to 3 hours. Do you or anyone doubt that Audi would have had a 1-2-3 if all the cars ran without issues? I would have preferred a Peugeot win so I'm not speaking as an Audi fan. Peugeot must be extremely disappointed even though they are trying to put a happy face on this by saying they got all their cars to the finish. They don't seem to be able to beat Audi at the game of balancing reliability with speed except once. This clearly should have been their year. Maybe I over-stated the point about reevaluating their effort, but I know I'd be extremely disheartened by this years outcome.

DK

I, my American friend was specifically refferring to the 'rubbish' being spouted by another poster about the Peugoet drivers 'Blocking' the leader! As my son was one of those drivers he mentioned, I think I'm in a better and more qualified position to comment on that point than you are old chap!

[gwyllion]

Okay, that explains why you so fiercely defend Anthony this year and last year (the Corvette incident).

Some questions for you:

1. Why have the tweets about the "sole vunerable Audi" been removed?

2. Please have another look at http://www.dailymotion.com/hub/x1uz_...videoId=xj983z starting from around the 3 minute mark. Can you honestly say that Gene wasn't a bit aggressive?

3. Earlier you wrote:

Originally Posted by Rennen

Hats off to Peugoet I say, they built new Cars and Engines on a FRACTION of the budget that Audi have!

Vive le France!...I'd buy a stylish French Peugoet road car (and have done so for the past 10 years) any day over an Ugle Aggressive German Audi !

What is the fraction you are talking about? In the past it was always suggested that Audi and Peugeot have a similar budget for the LMP1 program.

If I look at the preparation Peugeot did for Le Mans, I doubt that their budget is a lot smaller. They went to Sebring with 2 cars, Spa with 3 cars and Le Mans test day with 3 cars and did 12 test sessions (good for 45000 km).

[Acid09]

Several sources are suggesting that Peugeot's budget is a lot smaller than Audi's and I think there's something to it.

Peugeot always stresses how tight their budget is when it comes to additional races and Audi presence at Le Mans was a lot bigger than Peugeots in many levels.

Furthermore, Audi has been designing 2 1/2 brand new cars since Peugeot showed up with the 908 while they´re still using the same base design. Yes yes, I know Peugeot kept on stressing that the 908 is an all-new car but it is obvious that it shares a design base with the old car.

When first shots of the new 908 surfaced, it was said that the swan-neck wing and other features were originally planned to be part of an mid-season update for the 908 HDi FAP that ended up not happening due to funding reasons... you never hear stuff like that from Audi.

My guess would be that Peugeot operates on a budget that is at least 25% smaller than Audis. Yes, they´ve been testing a lot this year but that may be the reason why the new car was less of an revolution and more of an evolution..they chose to spend their money on preparation after the disastrous 2010 Le Mans effort...

[Rennen]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Okay, that explains why you so fiercely defend Anthony this year and last year (the Corvette incident).

Some questions for you:

1. Why have the tweets about the "sole vunerable Audi" been removed?

2. Please have another look at http://www.dailymotion.com/hub/x1uz_...videoId=xj983z starting from around the 3 minute mark. Can you honestly say that Gene wasn't a bit aggressive?

3. Earlier you wrote:
What is the fraction you are talking about? In the past it was always suggested that Audi and Peugeot have a similar budget for the LMP1 program.

If I look at the preparation Peugeot did for Le Mans, I doubt that their budget is a lot smaller. They went to Sebring with 2 cars, Spa with 3 cars and Le Mans test day with 3 cars and did 12 test sessions (good for 45000 km).

That's right, He didn't even touch the Vette, yet Hindy went into hysterics! Even when he pitted and a vent was replaced on the left side, commentators referred to the Porsche Curve incident when that wasn't even the passing side! At the end of his stint he was mobbed by 'hyped up' commentators with microphones asking about negative things, things he knew nothing about, after a momentous drive that gained his car back an entire lap!...THAT is what they should have been raving about!

What are Tweets?

Drivers jobs are to be aggressive, like er...McNish to Anthony at Silverstone!

Dr Ullrich shook Anthony's hand after this years race. He knows what the score is. And added "the Peugoet drivers did their jobs perfectly"...so don't make out you know better!

What would you know about their budgets?
VW Audi's is ENORMOUS!...Fact! I not going to give you what I know so just Judge for yourself their big TV Advertising LM Campaign (That excellent Nishy Anomated Advert will be an Advertising Award winner!) Even you couldn't have failed to notice their MASSIVE Hospitality building for the media and more?

[Acid09]

Audi definetely has the bigger budget for off-track stuff, just look at how they practically take over the Nürburgring 24 Hours...

I don't think there's a manufacturer outside of F1 with bigger budgets than VAG.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Acid09

Audi definetely has the bigger budget for off-track stuff, just look at how they practically take over the Nürburgring 24 Hours...

I don't think there's a manufacturer outside of F1 with bigger budgets than VAG.

Audi do use all their off track stuff for all their projects.
VAG is massive, so therefor let's not talk about the stuff they got which is not specified for Le Mans.

Besides. A McNish commercial has nothing to do with the Sportscar project, that is just Audi marketing using what they already got.

[Rennen]

Originally Posted by CTD

Audi do use all their off track stuff for all their projects.
VAG is massive, so therefor let's not talk about the stuff they got which is not specified for Le Mans.

Besides. A McNish commercial has nothing to do with the Sportscar project, that is just Audi marketing using what they already got.

Yes, yes, but what are you arguing about, VAG are MASSIVE...the entire Audi marketing is geared to high performance cars...that's why they go racing.
Peugoets in the family car sector, and should be applauded for taking them on!
Like all car manufacturers they have clever people working on making cars safer and more efficient and economical...(e.g. Their Hybrid 908) Their No7 car won the Michelin Green X Challenge for the most fuel efficient car...did you know or care?

Audi provide the Press with cars! Peugoet's team drivers and their team boss Olivier Quenell rode Bycycles to the circuit...a 120 kilometers on the main road from Chartres! That's the difference. Applaud them! Not accuse them falsly of "Dubious tactics" for heaven sake!

[FKWD2]

Originally Posted by Rennen

Dr Ullrich shook Anthony's hand after this years race. He knows what the score is. And added "the Peugoet drivers did their jobs perfectly"...so don't make out you know better!

For what it is worth: there is a lot of respect between the two sides, and when the race is over, most of what has happened on the track stays there. Don't know what your son has told you about what happens aft the race in the hospitalities but it sure is another element in why I believe we are just witnessing an all time classic competition....

I too have my personal view about the incident in the last hour, and when you as a driver know the leader is coming up from behind and your teammate is trying to catch him... well lets just say that Andre came prepared/warned for what would happen and it happened.....

Originally Posted by Rennen

What would you know about their budgets?
VW Audi's is ENORMOUS!...Fact! I not going to give you what I know so just Judge for yourself their big TV Advertising LM Campaign (That excellent Nishy Anomated Advert will be an Advertising Award winner!) Even you couldn't have failed to notice their MASSIVE Hospitality building for the media and more?

I do not think you are in a position to make that statement, if you allow me to say that. There certainly is no need for the PSA group to hide in shame on their budgets (be it in marketing / sponsorship - see Roland Garros, see classical advertising spend (easily obtained in marketing surveys) or be it in Motorsports with a new car and engine, a pretty comprehensive testing campaign and parallel development (daily) of a hybrid version....) I know that there are a lot of sources feeding the news of massively differing budgets but frankly speaking I speculate that is coming out of one corner and serves a specific purpose in a difficult situation.
What I can say however is that the Audi hospitality presence with so many guests in Le Mans means just one thing: Motorsport and Le Mans is getting the attention it deserves in the company. If you come to any other race you will see the same buildings set up (adapted in size to the number of guests who want to attend). the costs of such an event are big but significantly lower than an average print ad would cost you to run.
I do not want to pour oil into a heated debate but when labeled an "insider" I think one needs extra care in only debating what is under no circumstance speculation....All the best to your son and lets look forward to a great season!

sorry to all that this post got to be so long....

[Simmi]

Strong first post FKWD2, welcome!

[dxk1]

Originally Posted by Rennen

I, my American friend was specifically refferring to the 'rubbish' being spouted by another poster about the Peugoet drivers 'Blocking' the leader! As my son was one of those drivers he mentioned, I think I'm in a better and more qualified position to comment on that point than you are old chap!

In post #957 you did tell me I was spouting rubbish. I had said nothing about Peugeot blocking. Your comment regarding me spouting rubbish had to do with my comment where I had stated that Peugeot should really reevaluate whether they would ever have a chance to beat Audi at all now that they really missed their best chance. This was my humble opinion. I guess I was just feeling bad for Peugeot as I really wanted to see the number 9 win as I am a big fan of Seb Bourdais and Simon P. who were both in that car. It just seems Peugeot had the upper hand this year or at least should have had the upper hand with everything that happened during the race and the fact that they had years more experience with coupe technology. Now, with Audi learning more and more about coupe technology, I just see it getting much more difficult for Peugeot to keep up with them. I wish them luck as I am not a big Audi fan (I really can't stand Dr. Ulrich), but I do respect their excellent technology and resolve.

DK

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Rennen

What are Tweets?

A tweet is a message on twitter. After his last stint he wrote

Just finished my last 3.5hr stint of the race. Tired, drenched, bruised and battered. Great fun playing with the vulnerable solo Audi! :-)

See http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...21#post2896921

This tweet has since been deleted.

Originally Posted by Rennen

Drivers jobs are to be aggressive, like er...McNish to Anthony at Silverstone!

If they are racing for position, but not if they are 4 laps down

Originally Posted by Rennen

What would you know about their budgets? VW Audi's is ENORMOUS!...Fact!

The motorsport budget of Audi is reported to be 100 million in total: 30 million euro for DTM and 70 million euro for endurance. See http://www.tomorrownewsf1.com/budget...rt-100me-14412

The budget of Peugeot was estimated to be 50 million euro per year. See http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...22#post2462822

The budget of Aston Martin on the other hand is 15 million pound (~17 million euro). See http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...51#post2839951

In case you are wondering, the fraction you alluded to is 5/7 for Peugeot and 1/4 for Aston Martin
PSA is participating in prototype racing with Peugeot and WRC with Citroen. That are two of the most important motorsport disciplines

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

If they are racing for position, but not if they are 4 laps down

What about McNish on Montagny at Sebring?

[FKWD2]

Originally Posted by Simmi

Strong first post FKWD2, welcome!

thanks, but I had trouble with my "other" identity FKWD, so created a new one. Also, as I do not like hiding, I come from the "silver/red corner" (but then thats no secret any more), post out pf private interest or else will try and mention it.

[gwyllion]

I don't understand why, after 4 years of racing against Audi, Peugeot members and their family are publicly comparing the budget of the two manufacturers.

Before the race Famin said "I think that Audi has put an enormous amount of resources into gaining in performance and we tried to work on reliability." See http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/10/sp...-SRMANS10.html

After the race Bourdais said "We don't have the same resources as our rivals , so after what happened last year our target was to build a car that would finish." See http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/92286

Now the father of Anthony Davidson is calling the budget of Peugeot a fraction of Audi's.

A bigger budget is not necessary a guarantee for success. Toyota for instance has demonstrated this in Formula 1.

[Acid09]

It's no guarantee but it sure makes life a lot easier. I don't really understand why it is wrong to point it out...

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

A tweet is a message on twitter. After his last stint he wrote
See http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...21#post2896921

This tweet has since been deleted.
If they are racing for position, but not if they are 4 laps down
The motorsport budget of Audi is reported to be 100 million in total: 30 million euro for DTM and 70 million euro for endurance. See http://www.tomorrownewsf1.com/budget...rt-100me-14412

The budget of Peugeot was estimated to be 50 million euro per year. See http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...22#post2462822

The budget of Aston Martin on the other hand is 15 million pound (~17 million euro). See http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...51#post2839951

In case you are wondering, the fraction you alluded to is 5/7 for Peugeot and 1/4 for Aston Martin
PSA is participating in prototype racing with Peugeot and WRC with Citroen. That are two of the most important motorsport disciplines

Be careful with that EU50,000,000 for Peugeot. It seems to be about 2 years out of date. 3 years at 150 is yes, 50/year. But that would be 2007, 2008, and 2009 numbers. And frankly, PSA is the second largest automaker in Europe, right? In the top 10 in the world? So PSA ain't small by ANY stretch. To claim Goliath vs. David is laughable. It's Titan vs. Titan when you're talking about two top 10 automakers.

Though I find this budget argument thin and rather disingenuous at this date. Seems like more PR spin out of Peugeot. This year's Peugeot effort was a high string as any I've ever seen with some really ridiculous things going on behind the scenes. I think they're looking for any excuse this year as why they didn't win, because after last year's debacle I can imagine a lot of asses were handed back to their owners. Wonder what last Monday's board meeting was like...

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Acid09

It's no guarantee but it sure makes life a lot easier. I don't really understand why it is wrong to point it out...

I just wanted to point out that the budget argument has come up a lot recently. As Mike suggests, Peugeot almost seems to use it as excuse before the race to downplay the expectations and after the race to explain their defeat. In the past I had the impression that the budget of both manufacturers was comparable, partially because the argument never came up.

As Mike suggested, Rennen's claim that Peugeot's budget is "a fraction" of Audi's is silly. Just look at the massive amount of testing they did. The aero people of Peugeot were working flat out: the low drag package contained elements inspired by Audi R18 (low wing position and high end plates) and between the test day and the Le Mans race they managed to copy the Oak Racing gurney flap trick.

[MihokS5]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

I just wanted to point out that the budget argument has come up a lot recently. As Mike suggests, Peugeot almost seems to use it as excuse before the race to downplay the expectations and after the race to explain their defeat. In the past I had the impression that the budget of both manufacturers was comparable, partially because the argument never came up.

As Mike suggested, Rennen's claim that Peugeot's budget is "a fraction" of Audi's is silly. Just look at the massive amount of testing they did. The aero people of Peugeot were working flat out: the low drag package contained elements inspired by Audi R18 (low wing position and high end plates) and between the test day and the Le Mans race they managed to copy the Oak Racing gurney flap trick.

Agreed. Peugeot is making excuses and all of their fanboys are buying them
They did a TON of testing and also made a lot of aero changes as development went on.
They honestly seem like a dirty team that cries when things don't go their way...and they lack originality.