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Old 14 Jun 2011, 11:54   #31
AUSRSR
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So... what criteria determines which driver is seeded? This has been a bone of contention since the concept was introduced to AusGT's... Is it a championship winner in any class? Is it a race winner in any class? Is it being a paid (and therefore 'professional') racing driver? How old do the wins have to be? (Can I get former Bathurst winners like Mr Grice & Mr Mezera & Mr Seton out of retirement, all unseeded??)

This rule might ensure that a European team may have to run an unseeded Aussie because their racing history is known.

Meantime, I still think on the grounds of safety, scrapping the timed fuel stop is not a great move... most of these tyre changing & brake changing & refuelling crews are not Pros (with no sleight on them, but AusGT isnt big enough, and arguably doesnt have the need...) and is it not better to give teams the time to change brakes as often as they like in the allotted timeframe, making sure the car is safe... I mean how many cars limp around with some technical problem because of the potential time loss to fix it?
These are good points. The seeded driver one will always be cloudy. How do they rank it in FIA GT3? Gold to Bronze or something based on experience and past results? We'd have to look into it.

The pitstop time argument I don't disagree with. I've seen a similar system work in events such as the Wakefield 300 and it just takes the pressure off a bit and reduces the likelihood of mistakes in the pitlane regarding refuelling, brake changes etc

My grip against the pit regs was that the GT3 R had to pit at least 11 times or something compared the R8's 9 or something. That was a bit silly in my mind..
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Old 15 Jun 2011, 10:32   #32
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The unseeded driver rule is IMO really stupid. There are high profile teams coming over from Europe who would like to use their best drivers but they can't because of a rule that isn't used in any other endurance race that I know of (apart from GTE-AM in ILMC/ALMS/LMS).

On the flip side, it could give some up and coming young drivers or a young factory driver who is regarded in the rules as a ametuer like Marco Holzer was last year, a break with a quality team which would normally be full of Pros.
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Old 15 Jun 2011, 12:11   #33
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My grip against the pit regs was that the GT3 R had to pit at least 11 times or something compared the R8's 9 or something. That was a bit silly in my mind..
i believe both cars had to stop 11 times.
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Old 15 Jun 2011, 13:16   #34
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i believe both cars had to stop 11 times.
Correct.

Older GT3's were allowed less stops.

And the mighty team joest messed it up anyway.

lowndes car did an extra stop because they did something out of schedule,.. i think they stopped inside the 10 lap gap...

also, if anything Eddy and Lowndes were seeds, and Luff was the arguable one.

Eddy was GT champion, Lowndes obviously and Luff although a pro, hasn't won anything, but was still very easily arguable\y a seed.

But we all know, and accept, that Audi simply bought the event so could do whatever they liked.

There WAS a rule a while ago, and I think that determined a seed as someone that had won a championship in the last 3 years, or was a professional driver with recent wins (or top placement), and if the driver had been out of action for 3 years, he could be determined a master, rather than a seed.
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Old 16 Jun 2011, 05:33   #35
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Imagine being a top level GT team in Europe considering this event, only to see that they'll be racing with 15 year old Commodore's / Falcons and later model Aussie utes! No offence to these the owners of these cars (my cousin runs in Commodore Cup), but really, you think these teams are going to be interested in bringing their million dollars cars out to run with a heap of old Commodores and Falcons! This is just silly...

Not to mention the potential damage bill

Then again maybe I should get together with my cousins and enter
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Old 16 Jun 2011, 08:58   #36
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Imagine being a top level GT team in Europe considering this event, only to see that they'll be racing with 15 year old Commodore's / Falcons and later model Aussie utes! No offence to these the owners of these cars (my cousin runs in Commodore Cup), but really, you think these teams are going to be interested in bringing their million dollars cars out to run with a heap of old Commodores and Falcons! This is just silly...

Not to mention the potential damage bill

Then again maybe I should get together with my cousins and enter
And how is the Nurburgring 24 hour any different?
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Old 16 Jun 2011, 10:13   #37
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And how is the Nurburgring 24 hour any different?
They let 15 year old family sedans race in the Nurburgring 24hour?

OK
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Old 16 Jun 2011, 11:13   #38
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They let 15 year old family sedans race in the Nurburgring 24hour?

OK

When I was over there a team with a old Mini Cooper S and another lot in some old 80s SL Merc they the guys drove to the track to run in the 24hr... Now saying that they have tightened up the rules a couple of years back so they are no longer running such old cars but plenty of e36 BMWs and alike running in the 24hr and VLN series...
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Old 16 Jun 2011, 22:57   #39
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Imagine being a top level GT team in Europe considering this event, only to see that they'll be racing with 15 year old Commodore's / Falcons and later model Aussie utes! No offence to these the owners of these cars (my cousin runs in Commodore Cup), but really, you think these teams are going to be interested in bringing their million dollars cars out to run with a heap of old Commodores and Falcons! This is just silly...

Not to mention the potential damage bill

Then again maybe I should get together with my cousins and enter
TBH, most Euro teams wouldn't know which of the Utes, Commodores or Saloons are the older cars (until they see the carbies on the Commodore Cup cars). Lap speed and driver ettiquette will be their concerns. - Given the FG Falcon GT and BMW M3 qualifying times were slower than Commodore Cup cars this year - I don't see that as too much of an issue there were slower cars than those two on track as well.

Commodore Cup cars aren't anywhere near as backwards as many assume. Data logging and technical aspects of the VS's are fairly advanced for a very production based car. Many of the drivers aren't slouches either and although they tend to get together with each other, putting them up against other cars will pull them in somewhat. It's not such a big deal to rub doors with other 15 year old cars with under $100 panels and over-engineered suspension components, but they are all aware that other race cars aren't built the same, and wont race them in the same way(except maybe the Utes/Saloons). It'll be interesting to see what happens here anyway, but I'd be expecting at least one Commodore Cup car to attend.

In the end, GT teams will race based on the merit of the event, and competition in thier class. Look at the 24 hour on the weekend - LMP1 closing times on GT2/E cars with amatuer drivers are bigger than would be seen at Bathurst between GT3 and almost any production car - evidenced by the two massive shunts that took out the two Audi's. It's up to the drivers in all vehicles to be aware and respect each other, knowing that there will be a significant speed differential (In the 24 hour, one was a slower cars fault, the other the faster car) . They wont know the abilities of the Local drivers so would approach their desicion to enter and passing each vehicle with some caution no doubt - but that is all a part of an event such as this.
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Old 17 Jun 2011, 05:02   #40
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KSM86 has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
looks to me like a VLN format with the older cars.
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Old 17 Jun 2011, 06:13   #41
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Well im still looking forward to the newly renamed wakefield 3000
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Old 17 Jun 2011, 06:53   #42
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Well if that's what the European GT teams are used to, then

Will be a bit weird for us aussies watching though. And yep I reckon I could name at least one Commodore Cup team that will enter

Let's hope they get a decent GT field all the same. It'd be great to see a good variety of current GT spec cars including Ferrari, Lamborghini, Mercedes, and the Audi's back again.
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Old 17 Jun 2011, 08:15   #43
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I dont have a problem with the pace of the commodore cup cars or the drivers abilities.

The main issue really is image and the categories relation to the core values of the event. The Bathurst 12hr untill last year was essentially there for people to take a road going production car and race it, hopefully with manufacturers using the race to show off their new models capability which they did so throughout the races history.

While featuring a few older cars, most of the field were modern and completely relevant to the motoring public today. Even with the GT cars joining the race it is still essentially about putting modern cars to the test.

Commodore cup cars bare hardly any relation to their road going counterparts and are what you could term a genuine race car due to the number of modications they have undergone. Like i said before i think the category is great on its own, you wont hear a v8 engine note as great as theirs unless you go back to the group c group a days. I also have friends in the category and i genuinely enjoy it.

But i seriously think it is not the image you would want to mix with this category. The cars are ancient...the shell being from a car that was released 16 years ago...(i just thought to myself wow...nearly 20 years old) in a race that is for modern day gt cars and production cars.

Is this race now a VLN type event? If that is the intention then why not open the race to supertourers, v8supercars etc and pitch it as a all out race for anyone.

Saloon cars are in the same boat as commodore cup...old cars, which are associated with state level competition and like someone made the point before are associated with categories like the HQ series. They put on great racing on their own but have their place....i really dont think the 12 hr is it.

By keeping it a gt and production style event you give it a air of exclusivity about it while still keeping the feel of bathurst races of old which allowed a broad range of competitors.

Im not sure how the production car runners will react to these moves after already being displaced by gt cars last year...they now have to deal with complete race cars that are likely to place ahead of alot of them. Its not exactly going to entice these guys back is it...

This was a strange and unecessary move.
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Old 17 Jun 2011, 08:31   #44
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Let's not get FIA GT mixed up with VLN, they're two very different series.

How many Saloon Car or Commodore Cup competitors can afford to do a 12 hour race? How many tyres will they use? How many brake pads & rotors will they go through? The engine, gearbox and diff will all need rebuilding afterwards. Not to mention the cost of huge FIA fuel cells, drybreak fittings, a refuelling rig and transporting, feeding and housing a sizebale pit crew, some of whom will need fireproof apparel.
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Old 17 Jun 2011, 09:04   #45
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Meantime, I still think on the grounds of safety, scrapping the timed fuel stop is not a great move... most of these tyre changing & brake changing & refuelling crews are not Pros (with no sleight on them, but AusGT isnt big enough, and arguably doesnt have the need...) and is it not better to give teams the time to change brakes as often as they like in the allotted timeframe, making sure the car is safe... I mean how many cars limp around with some technical problem because of the potential time loss to fix it?
I have to disagree about the timed pitstops

A fundamental skill of endurance racing is slick pitwork. Just because some crews aren't pro's or as quick as others shouldn't mean the ones that have got the job down pat should be disadvantaged... whats next a standardised lap time because some of the drivers aren't pro's?

Look at Le Mans last week, crucial ground was made and lost in the pits between all the leaders, its a crucial aspect and part of the appeal of an enduro.


As for the race, i thinks its a real shame its now become a 'butchers picnic' rules wise....
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