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Old 29 Oct 2016, 11:50 (Ref:3683810)   #51
chernaudi
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Originally Posted by GTfour View Post
It's funny to see how many of you are blinded by the fact that the FIA, their inside friends at the ACO and fossil fuel hating greenies have reduced the so called top of sportscars to wheezy whisperers that could do so much better if, like in F1, the combustion engines were to be allowed serious outputs.
These cars should represent what is ultimately possible with current technology. What we now see are cars that are dialed down far too much, just to let F1 shine. The FIA has done it again. Sad to see so many be lulled into thinking this is all so very spectacular. Also sad to see that the worldwide campaign of making people think fossil fuels are nearly gone and that electrically powered cars are the way to go, is catching on too well for something so poorly not based in reality .
Fossil fuels are here to stay for at least a few centuries more and electrical propulsion is never gonna take over the many millions of FF engines we humans employ in our daily lives. People(willingly) keep forgetting the nagging facts that for electrical propulsion to take over completely, we would need amounts of exotic materials that are simply not there. Think of copper, Lithium, Neodymium, all far from being in abundance on our planet but all crucial for any modern electrical power unit. .

Sorry lads, as long as the cars on my beloved track are basically policor sign boards for a world that's being shoved down our throats as ' the future' while reality is something completely different, I will keep on not being impressed by the sight of them ugly and sterile contraptions.

Still the party is allways good at Le Mans, many friends will be there and the atmosphere will be warm and friendly, so I'll keep coming but if I want see some seriously fast machinery, I'll go to F1.
Sorry, but current F1, and even with the next gen rules, will have engines with fuel flow restrictors on them. And without hybrids, they'd be stuck at making about 650-700bhp, because though they can rev to 15,000rpm, they can't get near that because of fuel flow limitations. Biggest reason why next year's F1 cars will be faster is better aero and more mechanical grip because of wider tires and going from being 1800mm wide to 2000mm wide.

Of course, I wish that the current LMP1s were still 2000mm wide and had 14+inch wide front and rear tires on them.

Fossil fuels might not be going anywhere soon, because of hybrids. No electric car, not even the upcoming Audi E-Tron SUV, has sufficient range on EV power alone for anything more than city driving, even with ERS systems. ICEs need hybrids to cut emissions and boost fuel economy. EVs need hybrids as range extenders. I don't see that changing in the mainstream for at least a decade, especially outside of city driving.
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Old 29 Oct 2016, 11:57 (Ref:3683814)   #52
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They are neutered sportscars. Compared to the goose with the golden eggs, F1, that are granted seriously powerful turbo engines, current P1's are silly, with their fuel flow restrictors and all.
Them speed differences you say? These are easy to achieve when the FIA and ACO only allow tier 3 GT cars to compete. This story would be alltogether different if them LMP1's had to take it up against the likes of the best GT's the customer can buy, nowadays.
Sorry, but F1 use fuel flow restrictors too. I think they're even the same ones, as this is an FIA thing.

I'm not blinded. I just love the cars. The current LMPs are more exciting than the ones during the 2000s. That's just how it is.
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Old 29 Oct 2016, 12:05 (Ref:3683818)   #53
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Sorry, but current F1, and even with the next gen rules, will have engines with fuel flow restrictors on them. And without hybrids, they'd be stuck at making about 650-700bhp, because though they can rev to 15,000rpm, they can't get near that because of fuel flow limitations. Biggest reason why next year's F1 cars will be faster is better aero and more mechanical grip because of wider tires and going from being 1800mm wide to 2000mm wide.

Of course, I wish that the current LMP1s were still 2000mm wide and had 14+inch wide front and rear tires on them.

Fossil fuels might not be going anywhere soon, because of hybrids. No electric car, not even the upcoming Audi E-Tron SUV, has sufficient range on EV power alone for anything more than city driving, even with ERS systems. ICEs need hybrids to cut emissions and boost fuel economy. EVs need hybrids as range extenders. I don't see that changing in the mainstream for at least a decade, especially outside of city driving.
Knowing the current F1 teams run their cars at close to 1000bhp, this means they'll be coaxing over 800hp from their ICE's, since the hybrid systems they use only give them some 180hp. It's all about the bias of electric versus ICE. In F1 it's far more comparable with our current street hybrids: a bit of electric propulsion to get going(and save fuel) and the ICE for the horsepower and range. LMP1-H have way to much electric power for it to be comparable with any road hybrid. These systems have nothing to do with any road sportscar.
Shift this back to let's say 20% electric and 80% ICE and we're talking real world comparable race cars again.

As for this Formula-E: they're just a laughing matter. As long as they have to change cars mid race, I won't take them seriously and won't see them as any threat to ICE racers.
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Old 29 Oct 2016, 12:11 (Ref:3683822)   #54
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Sorry, but F1 use fuel flow restrictors too. I think they're even the same ones, as this is an FIA thing.

I'm not blinded. I just love the cars. The current LMPs are more exciting than the ones during the 2000s. That's just how it is.
That's how it is in your own world. Fuel flow restrictors might also be used in F1 but at least there the ICE engines are allowed to produce some serious horses as against the wheezy ICE's in the current LMP1-H's.
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Old 29 Oct 2016, 12:48 (Ref:3683835)   #55
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That's how it is in your own world. Fuel flow restrictors might also be used in F1 but at least there the ICE engines are allowed to produce some serious horses as against the wheezy ICE's in the current LMP1-H's.
Other mans grass is always greener, is what I'm seeing here. It ignores the current crop of F1 cars having neutered sounds and the fact they all run identical engine layouts. Something sportscar racing has always done very well is variety, and we get that in WEC/LM/etc but not in F1.

Too much rose tints and other mans grass in this thread, tbh. Ignores variety, acceleration and cornering speeds. Just concentrates on pure engine power, and actively disregards electrical power. Drag racing might be worth a watch to those disappointed with 1200hp LMP1s that lap faster than every in history.
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Old 29 Oct 2016, 12:53 (Ref:3683838)   #56
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You also have to remember that when the shift was made from 4.0T/6.0NA gasoline engines and 5.5 liter turbodiesels to 2.0T/3.4NA gasoline and 3.7 liter turbodiesel engines, those engines were capped at 600bhp because of air restrictors. That's no more, or possibly even less, than the current LMP1s. Even the big engined cars at most made about 700hp max in race conditions.

The era of the big, fire-breathing GT1 cars is over. Such cars are too big and powerful to be worth using in GT3, and the cars that have run in GTE/GT2 that could've been also used in GT1 are no longer in production. Namely the 7 liter Corvettes (the 427 died except as a crate motor when the C6 Corvette left production), the Dodge Viper is on the way out (if not already out of production) for the foreseeable future, and the ACO won't allow the Corvette C7 Z06 to race because both GTE and the old GT1 regs even limited forced induction engine capacity to 4.0 liters (the Z06 has a 6.2 liter supercharged V8)

Not to mention that no car maker wants to race full on supercars or hypercars in endurance racing.

I myself liked the air restrictor LMP1 days better than now, because I don't like the strategy of lift and coast and dependency on hybrids or alternative fuels for performance breaks. Not to mention that air restrictor BOP is cheaper and easier to enforce than fuel flow and other EOT related performance balancing. But that's what we have now. We have narrow cars, on skinny tires, that have to coast to game a laptime. The way that the ACO have placed incentive on hybrids has jacked up the cost, as well as other tech reg changes. I believe as Audi believed, and Peugeot believes, that different strategies with ICE and hybrids should have a near equal chance to win, rather than all but mandating one way to go to be successful.

From 1999-2013 we had varying varieties of cars, all of which had their merits and were interesting. Today, the tech is interesting, but I'm not in favor of narrower cars, fuel flow limits/lift and coast, and pushing "green" agendas at the risk of damaging variety and different ways of doing things.
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Old 29 Oct 2016, 13:00 (Ref:3683839)   #57
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From 1999-2013 we had varying varieties of cars, all of which had their merits and were interesting. Today, the tech is interesting, but I'm not in favor of narrower cars, fuel flow limits/lift and coast, and pushing "green" agendas at the risk of damaging variety and different ways of doing things.
You make a good point on the fuel flow meter costs. We've seen that highlighted as an issue before. Narrower cars aren't the prettiest either - but we have had some properly ugly cars in the past as well.

But I think we've had some nice variety in the last few years? At one point we had -

Porsche - Flat 4 Turbo Petrol + Battery
Toyota - V8 NA Petrol + Super Capacitor
Audi - V7 Turbo Diesel + Flywheel

I don't know another top end motorsport series that's had this much variety.
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Old 29 Oct 2016, 13:43 (Ref:3683844)   #58
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Now though, everyone has battery hybrids and the regs are more and more favoring small turbocharged gasoline engines. In a way I can't fault that, because that's what the real world is gravitating to. But also in the rear world, a 5 liter V8 Ford Mustang can get as good a gas mileage as a lot of V6 engined sedans can, and you can have your pick of engine with that car, from a turbo 4 all the way up to whatever Ford Performance/Shelby American decide to do for the GT500, and even the GT500 made almost 700bhp and got 30mpg highway.

A big, but low-revving engine can get as good a fuel mileage as a smaller engine can if driven right. Same with hybrids or diesels. There's more than one way to do things in the real world, and that should show up on the race track, instead of regs forcing teams into a box on powertrain strategy or, as with F1, making the cars look much the same, again because of rules and there being one way that seems to be the best way.
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Old 29 Oct 2016, 18:18 (Ref:3683875)   #59
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F1 has 4MJ/lap hybrid assist, the same as last year's Audi. The difference is they have a lower deployment rate, crappy tires, and 2WD, so they can't accelerate out of low and medium speed corners as fast and end up on electric power for a higher percentage of the lap.
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Old 29 Oct 2016, 22:44 (Ref:3683909)   #60
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I want the pre-2013 chassis/body regs back but with the full width rear wing and no fin. They should keep the weight low and make it how ever many hybrid systems you want and give you a set of mj allowed by fuel in a sliding scale.
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Old 8 Nov 2016, 19:50 (Ref:3686594)   #61
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In this respect, I must say that I'd really like for a privateer Joest Audi LMP1 -(minus)H to join the fray. Engine noise and the need to reach higher top end speeds. Which is no trouble at all with the current state of ICE's.

And of course some fuel flow levels that allow it a healthy smack of horses and torques against these hybrid hoovers...
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Old 10 Nov 2016, 02:19 (Ref:3686882)   #62
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These are easy to achieve when the FIA and ACO only allow tier 3 GT cars to compete. This story would be alltogether different if them LMP1's had to take it up against the likes of the best GT's the customer can buy, nowadays.
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