Motorsport's Greatest Touring Car Drivers

[krt917]

Apologies if I've already missed the discussion on this, but did anyone else see Motorsport's top 20 all-time greatest touring car drivers lists?

I know that these lists are as much to provoke debate as anything else, but they usually get pretty close to being sensible - with the right names even if not in the right order. However, this one really is odd - see what you think:

1. Steve Soper
2. Peter Brock
3. Andy Rouse
4. Alain Menu
5. Bernd Schneider
6. Frank Gardner
7. Roberto Ravaglia
8. Gerry Marshall
9. Jim Clark
10. John Cleland
11. Gabriele Tarquini
12. Klaus Ludwig
13. Laurent Aiello
14. Dieter Quester
15. Hans Stuck Jnr
16. Jo Winkelhock
17. Jack Sears
18. Rickard Rydell
19. Frank Biela
=20. Brian Muir
=20. Nicola Larini

[Alfa Fan]

Got the magazine today and agree its a very interesting selection.

[racingdad]

I would have put Jim Clark higher - still have fond memories of him racing Lotus Cortina at Brands, waving at the crowd while going around the outside of cars at Druids. But my No 1 would be Alain Menu,

[E46]

Strange not to see Giovanardi or Radisich.

[naughtymutt]

I would have put Gerry Marshall, Jim Clark and Cleland higher simply because they have (had) the ability to get into any type of car and be competitive.

I remember seeing Gerry walk upto a car (Ford Mustang) at Snetterton about 3 years ago with his walking stick, get in and go as fast as anyone else there.

[daz90]

I too would have thought Radisich would have been in there, but i suppose only his mid 90's performances were of a truly high standard, then after those good years his car was either not upto scratch or he seemed to lack the motivation fighting it out in the midfeild. Pity really, because he was unlucky not to have won a championship, and probabaly would have done if Alfa hadn't conquered all in 94.

Cleland is my all time favourite driver, so my biased opinion would elevate him higher too.

[racer69]

I can't really agree with Clark being in there, his touring car racing was an aside to his open-wheel committments. It's like Schumacher doing a few Touring Cars races a year over the next few years and then proclaming him one of the greatest in saloon's.....

As for Soper, no doubt he deserved a place in the Top 20, but no.1? He swapped between alot of championships which hindered his success in some ways, but managed the Japanese title in 1995, but prior to 2001 when was the last time he had sat in a Touring Car, 1996?

Good to see 3 Aussies in there

[racingdad]

Originally Posted by racer69

I can't really agree with Clark being in there, his touring car racing was an aside to his open-wheel committments. It's like Schumacher doing a few Touring Cars races a year over the next few years and then proclaming him one of the greatest in saloon's.....

But when he did appear he was the class of the field - the rest could only be greatful he didn't appear too often!

[Jonny Apex]

I think the mag is quite justified in putting Soper at number one. He's one of only a few drivers who possibly deserve such a ranking. He was an ace touring car driver right throughout the 80s and right up to the mid-90s. Not only was he deserving of more titles than appear on his CV, but he was also a fantastic team player - love him or hate him for it, he did Harvey a massive favour in that Silverstone finale of 92 (odd that no mention of that season with VLR is mentioned in the piece, yet there's a picture with a a caption showing the Cleland incident - how could they miss that? It's also a shame they missed out his success in Radbourne Racing's little Fiat X19? in the late 70s). The fact he got himself back up with Cleland etc. in that Silverstone race was amazing as he'd been left for dead on the opening lap after a shunt at Club. It was one of numerous mega drives in Soper's career (I also recall the comeback that year around Brands GP and his last gasp lunge on Sugden at Stirlings).

Reading that piece and you realise just how much inter-team politics played a part in him not winning more titles. However, a lack of titles should not influence our perception of just how good drivers were/are.

[JMeissner]

It's allways difficult to make these lists, but I can't see that Biela, Ludwig, Tarquini are that far down. And also of course Rydell, he should be higher...

[daz90]

Soper was a lap down on Cleland and Harvey when he took him out.

[Wimille]

Dieter Quester: The best

[KA]

Originally Posted by daz90

Soper was a lap down on Cleland and Harvey when he took him out.

No he wasn't- he was actually just behind them in sixth place. He'd passed Cleland to take fourth, Harvey (who'd dropped back to 6th while trying to pass Will Hoy for 4th earlier in the lap- he put Will on the grass allowing Cleland and Soper to pass them both) then passed Cleland at Club for 5th, and Soper promptly waved Tim through into 4th. Cleland dived down the inside of Soper at Brooklands, hitting him and going up onto 2 wheels but held on to take 5th, and Soper then took him out at Luffield

[KA]

Originally Posted by racer69

I can't really agree with Clark being in there, his touring car racing was an aside to his open-wheel committments. It's like Schumacher doing a few Touring Cars races a year over the next few years and then proclaming him one of the greatest in saloon's.....

I think there's one big difference- any touring car racing Schumacher might do would probably be nothing more than a minor footnote to his career (how many people even remember his handful of DTM appearances for Mercedes back in 1991 or thereabouts?)

Yes, Clark's touring car career was an aside to his single-seater commitments, but don't forget this was a period when F1 drivers routinely raced tourers and sportscars between GP's- his touring car appearances were regular enough to have a BTCC Championship title to his name in 1964.

Apart from anything else, Jim Clark in a Lotus Cortina has to be one of the iconic images of 60's touring car racing- for something that was, as you said, 'an aside to his open-wheel commitments' to be so widely-remembered nearly 40 years later suggests that he made a pretty substantial impact on touring cars...

[Jonny Apex]

Thanks for coming to my aid, Ka. I was pretty sure Soper was genuinely dicing with Cleland for position when they collided. It was an astonishing fightback, what with the rear end of the car stoved in. I also agree with you on Clark as well. It was a serious attempt at touring cars, not just dipping in and out a la Mansell.

[Super Tourer]

I would have thought James Thompson should be in there - double BTCC champion - ETCC race winner - been fast in every touring car he's driven.

[BSchneiderFan]

Rydell should be much higher, if you ask me. Still, good to see Schneider so far up. B it harsh on Klaus Ludwig?

[krt917]

Originally Posted by Super Tourer

I would have thought James Thompson should be in there - double BTCC champion - ETCC race winner - been fast in every touring car he's driven.

If he does a good job in the WTCC over the next year or two, I think he will become a candidate

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

Rydell should be much higher, if you ask me. Still, good to see Schneider so far up. B it harsh on Klaus Ludwig?

I'm interested to hear all the support for Cleland - he was a great fighter, but was (I thought) often overly robust. That's why I didn't feel sorry for him at Silverstone in 1992, even though I don't agree with what happened. I certainly don't think Cleland should be ahead of someone with as much class as Klaus!

I also thought Menu was far too high, especially given that Aiello doesn't even get into the top 10. Menu was great when he was at the head of the field, but tended to lose the plot when racing in the pack. And he hasn't exactly set the world alight in the DTM of late.

As for names not appearing, I'm still surprised John Whitmore didn't make the list.

[BSchneiderFan]

There is also an argument that Cleland never really proved himself on a world stage, most of his career being in Britain (with occasional outings Down Under), whereas people like Winkelhock, Schneider, Ludwig, Soper and Menu have put themselves up against the best drivers everywhere.

[rbs]

Why are no small class winners included , Bill Mcgovern in Bevan Imp the should have been in the listings.So many class wins and championships to his name.

[Andy Metcalf]

No mention of Matt Neal? The first Independent Driver to win a Race outright and multiple Independents Champion. But I suppose it depends how the drivers were classified for the list.

[krt917]

Originally Posted by rbs

Why are no small class winners included , Bill Mcgovern in Bevan Imp the should have been in the listings.So many class wins and championships to his name.

Yes, that's a good point, although several drivers on the list did compete in the smaller classes too, and then graduated up. I know McGovern won three titles, due to class wins counting towards outright championship points (something that has always annoyed me!) in the early 70s', but I don't know what else he did. Can anyone educate me?!

Originally Posted by btccnews

No mention of Matt Neal? The first Independent Driver to win a Race outright and multiple Independents Champion. But I suppose it depends how the drivers were classified for the list.

It depends on what you mean by independent - once upon a time, many drivers were 'independets'. Matt Neal is a good touring car driver, and certainly one of the better around at the moment, but I think that if you're looking at 40-odd years of touring car history you'd have to be a really big Neal fan to have him in the top 20!

[alesi95]

Originally Posted by Jonny Apex

Thanks for coming to my aid, Ka. I was pretty sure Soper was genuinely dicing with Cleland for position when they collided. It was an astonishing fightback, what with the rear end of the car stoved in. I also agree with you on Clark as well. It was a serious attempt at touring cars, not just dipping in and out a la Mansell.

Soper was by far the fastest driver during the 02 season. A few silly mistakes, commitments in Germany and sacrificing his season to help Harvey killed his season. So many times did he start dead last and finish a few seconds away from 1st.

Soper by far deserves to top the list. Only 2001was a dire seaon.
He was also spectacular in Sportscars, I think BMW treated him a little unfairly in the end.

[mac]

Originally Posted by btccnews

No mention of Matt Neal?

I know the Australian fans won't be able to understand that either.

[Craig]

Sorry but Matt Neal in the top 20? hahaha